Drew-1918 Posted 18 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 April , 2017 On 4/16/2017 at 21:29, MBrockway said: Though said thread has languished of late, it is not forgotten and will be revived/refreshed when I get some more spare time It is dovetailing with some other work I'm doing on building a map of all the London area RVC drill hall locations. That's another backburner too though! Mark Sounds very interesting. Look forward to hearing more about it. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 26 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2017 (edited) My thanks to those at the British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum for identifying this embroidered shoulder title believed to be WW1 period. I had not been able to find any evidence of this battalion having one. 20th County of London - Shoulder Titles Also to Postwarden for details about these 19th Londons ones. London Regt. cloth shoulder titles- 1/10th & 1/19th Bns Edited 1 May , 2017 by Drew-1918 Appearance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 29 April , 2017 Share Posted 29 April , 2017 Chris, London Irish Titles use as you see fit regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 29 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2017 Thanks, Mark. They are fantastic. I really appreciate all your contributions. Cheers, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 25 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2017 (edited) 29th - 32nd London Rgt embroidered title updated from here at the BCMB Forum. Post #19 Edited 25 May , 2017 by Drew-1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 30 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2017 (edited) Officer Brodie Helmet. 9th London Regiment Front view The above illustration is based on a painting of Major Lindsey-Renton that hangs in the old Queen Victoria's Rifles HQ, 52-56 Davies Street. Information gratefully received from 'Jelly Terror', BCMBF. This picture must date from February 1918 at the earliest, since before this time Major Lindsey-Renton was 2 i/c of the 1/9th Battalion. This patch is for the amalgamated battalion (previously 2/9th bn. patch). I have previously seen these insignia referred to as being placed on the back of officer helmets. As far as I know, the patches were so placed in order that officers' own troops could see them up ahead, and also so that the Germans could not mark them out as a special target. In that sense, I was quite surprised to see it on the front like this. It could be that the artist has asked him to turn it round for the sitting or perhaps because it dates from after the armistice when such things were not so important. This is all purely speculation of course, but I would be curious to know if battalion patches were worn this way round. In addition, did most of the officers of the London Regiment have the battalion patch on their brodie? The 12th Bn had a maltese cross on the back, as mentioned by Arthur in a previous post. Edited 18 July , 2018 by Drew-1918 More information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 29 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2017 (edited) There is a passage on page 45 of The Long Carry, by Frank Dunham, which says: "We still had no idea of the day on which we were going to attack, but the final preparations went on apace. To prevent disorganization during the attack, all troops were served out with distinguishing marks, our division adopted the card sign, diamond, heart, club and spade, one of these signs for each battalion in a brigade, thus on each sleeve we had sewn a yellow diamond..." Frank Dunham was with the 1/7th Londons. He is referring to the Messines attack of June, 1917. I do not know if anyone knew of such information before, but it is interesting to get some evidence for such a specific date for the introduction of these battalion patches. Edited 29 June , 2017 by Drew-1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 29 June , 2017 Share Posted 29 June , 2017 On 30/05/2017 at 03:54, Drew-1918 said: Officer Brodie Helmet. 9th London Regiment The above illustration is based on a painting of Major Lindsey-Renton that hangs in the old Queen Victoria's Rifles HQ, 52-56 Davies Street. Information gratefully received from 'Jelly Terror', BCMBF. This picture must date from February 1918 at the earliest, since before this time Major Lindsey-Renton was 2 i/c of the 1/9th Battalion. This patch is for the amalgamated battalion (previously 2/9th bn. patch). See this sad news from the KRRC Association ... Quote Dear Members Please be aware that the 2017 KRRC Journal will not be sent out until the end of May or early June whist we await news on the future of Davies Street. Davies Street is reported to be closing later this year and our last meeting there will be our Annual General Meeting on July 20th at 14-00hrs after the Regents Park Memorial Service1. This is a sad day for all Fellow Riflemen who have been proud to have served and attended functions at Davies Street over many years. Let us hope that the powers that be realise what a huge difference this will make for ex Riflemen, Reservists and Cadets. Richard Frost MBE Honorary Secretary The King’s Royal Rifle Corps Association [1The Regents Park Memorial Service commemorates the deaths of seven RGJ bandsmen in an IRA bomb on 20 July 1982 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 29 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2017 (edited) I agree, it is very sad news indeed. I heard on the grapevine that the landowner wants to turn it into a hotel. I don't think his father would have done that. I am not 100% sure, but I think one of the family's ancestors was a C.O. of the Victoria Rifles at some point too*. Still, it must be hard to make ends meet when you are a billionaire. *Perhaps an Honorary Colonelcy Edited 29 June , 2017 by Drew-1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 30 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 June , 2017 10 hours ago, Drew-1918 said: There is a passage on page 45 of The Long Carry, by Frank Dunham, which says: "We still had no idea of the day on which we were going to attack, but the final preparations went on apace. To prevent disorganization during the attack, all troops were served out with distinguishing marks, our division adopted the card sign, diamond, heart, club and spade, one of these signs for each battalion in a brigade, thus on each sleeve we had sewn a yellow diamond..." Frank Dunham was with the 1/7th Londons. He is referring to the Messines attack of June, 1917. I do not know if anyone knew of such information before, but it is interesting to get some evidence for such a specific date for the introduction of these battalion patches. That said, Westlake and Chappell's, British Territorial Units 1914 - 18, has a photograph on page 34 of a "Private" A. F. Kemp, 1/19th Bn. who is wearing a green club patch. He was killed at Ypres in January 1917. This would seem to put Dunham's dates into doubt. Unless the 1/7th Bn got them later or they were reissued just before this battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 30 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2017 (edited) On 20/07/2016 at 08:29, tocemma said: I On 20/07/2016 at 09:07, tocemma said: A few more for style of typeface. Th artillery flash was introduced in 1917 for all artillery units. This example has the added dagger. Quote never did identify the Wat Tyler swords/daggers, the black I guess is a rifles unit not sure about the coloured one, but it was most likely one of a sequence, different highlight colours for other units. Regards Tocemma Hello there, I got hold of this postcard which seems to show a black sword on some Royal Artillery men. I think it is a very interesting photograph. Edited 19 October , 2020 by Drew-1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 30 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2017 Although, of course, it could be red, or indeed another colour. At any rate, I think its a 56th Division patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 31 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2017 On 5/30/2017 at 11:54, Drew-1918 said: Officer Brodie Helmet. 9th London Regiment Front view I have previously seen these insignia referred to as being placed on the back of officer helmets. As far as I know, the patches were so placed in order that officers' own troops could see them up ahead, and also so that the Germans could not mark them out as a special target. In that sense, I was quite surprised to see it on the front like this. It could be that the artist has asked him to turn it round for the sitting or perhaps because it dates from after the armistice when such things were not so important. This is all purely speculation of course, but I would be curious to know if battalion patches were worn this way round. In addition, did most of the officers of the London Regiment have the battalion patch on their brodie? The 12th Bn had a maltese cross on the back, as mentioned by Arthur in a previous post. Here is a photograph courtesy of the IWM, which shows soldiers of the 8th London Regiment with insignia on their brodie helmets. I cannot really make it out though. The man on the left might have a club of the 1/8th London Regiment (even though the two battalions had been amalgamated by this point and should have had a horizontal rectangle (or triangle for 1918?)). I have no idea about the man on the right. The man on the left has insignia which is on the front of the helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 31 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2017 Another soldier of the Post Office Rifles with insignia on the front of his helmet. Courtesy of the IWM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 21 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2017 (edited) Some similarities I hadn't quite noticed before. Battalions with some historical links or traditions associated with the Rifle Brigade. Battalions with historical links or traditions associated with the King's Royal Rifle Corps. The QVR obviously stand out as different in not having the Rifle green and scarlet title. They also stand out in other ways, for example, in their use of the St. George & Dragon motif instead of Rifle Buttons. Battalions with historical links or traditions associated with Line Regiments. The above may include some battalions that were not affiliated to the Regiment I have alluded to, during the Great War. However, it seems to me that it was the historical tradition that was more important here rather than an affiliation at any one time. These affiliations were often changed and did not, in every case, lead to a sudden change in uniform or any blurring of tradition. Edited 21 October , 2017 by Drew-1918 Punctuation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 5 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2017 (edited) An update on the 2/10th Bn patches. This information gratefully received from 'Jelly Terror' and 'Orasot', over at the British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum. In my previous post here (post #64), I had wondered about the small coloured squares. In actual fact, these were just a sample meant to indicate different colours of the company bar/arc which was placed at the top of the shoulder above the square, green battalion patch. From the top: the "emerald green" bar represents HQ Company. The dark green square is a battalion patch of the 175th Inf. Bde. These are taken from originals at the IWM. Underneath we have coloured "bars" for A Coy. (blue), B Coy. (yellow), C Coy. (purple), and D Coy. (red). These are my reconstructions based on the sample colours at the IWM. *It is possible that the purple colour of C Company was a bit lighter than it appears in my illustration, otherwise it would have been difficult to distinguish between "A" and "C" Companies in battle. I am not expert in the different ways the colour of dye changes with age, but something may have happened in this case. It also needs to be borne in mind that the effects of modern photography may have lead to a certain darkening as well. Edited 12 November , 2017 by Drew-1918 Extra detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 November , 2017 Share Posted 5 November , 2017 This topic just goes from strength to strength! Excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 5 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2017 Thanks, Mark. We are getting there slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 10 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 November , 2017 (edited) More from the IWM. My thanks to 'Jelly Terror' for his help with this. From research conducted by 'Orasot'. Many thanks, also. The following refers to insignia worn by the 1/22nd London Regiment: "1) March 1915 - Aug 1916, Nil 2) 1st Aug 1916 - 31st Oct 1916, Two coloured bands each 1" broad. Worn 1" apart on each sleeve at a distance of 4" from shoulder seam in jacket. Each Coy wore a different colour as below. A. Blue, B. Green, C. Red, D. Yellow. Pattern as per A Coy enclosed..." "...3) 31st Oct 1916 - 15th May 1917, Nil 4) From 15th May 1917 to present date [17.9.17], a diamond shaped piece of red cloth 2 1/2" x 2" worn on each arm at a distance of 1/2" from shoulder seam. A stripe of material 2" x 3/4" of the Coy colour as in (2) is worn 1" below the diamond by men doing Coy duty. Pattern as of A Coy enclosed." It appears that the familiar company bands, often seen in photographs of 47th Division men, were a second variation (1917), and that they had a slightly different design when first introduced (1916). I have at least seen the later ones worn by battalions in the 140th and 142nd Brigade. It would be good to see some evidence from the 141st Bde, too. 1/15th Bn. Edited 13 November , 2017 by Drew-1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 12 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2017 (edited) The date in the previous post for the introduction of the 47th Division battalion patches is very similar to that given by Frank Dunhman (post #134). I do not know what this means in relation to the photograph I mentioned in post #137, from Westlake and Chappell. Edited 12 November , 2017 by Drew-1918 Extra information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leibregiment Posted 24 November , 2017 Share Posted 24 November , 2017 Has anyone any thoughts on this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 25 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2017 (edited) Hello there, The following thread may be of some interest to you: London Scottish- shoulder title change (British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum). This is a bit out of my area of study at the moment, but I would tentatively say that the title you posted dates from the period immediately after the Great War. In all photographs I have seen from WW1 with men of the 21st London Rgt. wearing cloth shoulder titles, they all seem to have the abbreviated "F.S.R." version. It seems that after the war there was an attempt by the War Office to standardise titles, and as such, a few battalions petitioned to carry on using titles bearing the name by which they were well known. The title you post is contained in a file from the period 1922-24, which seems to indicate it started in use about this time. However, I am not sure how long it continued in use. This information is not from my own knowledge, but rather is a summary of what I was told by 'Jelly Terror', the originator of the thread I have posted a link to. Any mistakes will be my own misunderstanding. Hope that helps, Chris Edited 25 November , 2017 by Drew-1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leibregiment Posted 25 November , 2017 Share Posted 25 November , 2017 Chris, thats fantastic, really appreciate this, just saved me a shed load of money...thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 26 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2017 Glad the info was of some help. Just to reiterate though, there is a bit of presumption of evidence there. I cannot say with 100% certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leibregiment Posted 26 November , 2017 Share Posted 26 November , 2017 No its good. my research on the tunic led to it being post WW1 the final piece was the shoulder title...again many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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