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Remembered Today:

London Regiment cloth shoulder titles and patches


Drew-1918

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I hope these might be of interest.

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578eb585d7e4c_LonResize.jpg.3307c0065fe68b088e08bc23ede6c0c8.jpg

Some of these are post-war I think.

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The thistle on Hodden London Jock patch was worn until relatively recent times: I'm pretty sure I recall seeing photos of it on the olive drab pre-DPM combat gear in the 70's.

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Thanks very much Frogsmile for posting. Interesting cadet ones, I don't really know much about them, but should really try and add them.

 

I based my 'Queen's' illustrations on these ones. Haven't seen them anywhere else and not described at the IWM, so  not really sure which period they are

from. I've presumed the white on red are WW2. 

 

Thanks Steven for your continued input with the London Scottish. Hoping I might come across that Airfix cover one day!

 

Chris

 

Edited by Drew-1918
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Out of interest, the current issue of the London Scottish Gazette has just arrived and has a colour photo (as part of an obituary) of a LS Sergeant in 1966, wearing the Hodden and thistle patch beneath a blue formation sign I can't make out, and a white-on-red London Scottish cloth title. This on a BD jacket worn with Hodden kilt and what we know as 'pink socks' (Hodden-coloured hose tops).

Edited by Steven Broomfield
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2 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

Thanks very much Frogsmile for posting. Interesting cadet ones, I don't really know much about them, but should really try and add them.

 

I based my 'Queen's' illustrations on these ones. Haven't seen them anywhere else and not described at the IWM, so  not really sure which period they are

from. I've presumed the white on red

are WW2. 

 

Thanks Steven for your continued input with the London Scottish. Hoping I might come accross that Airfix cover one day!

 

Chris

 

 

Yes I think that the QUEEN'S white on drab are more likely to be WW1, although bear in mind that the white on scarlet originates from the worsted titles worn by infantry on SD between 1902 and 1908.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I have just posted a separate topic on the London Scottish, but can confirm that the 2nd Battalion (60th Division) wore a yellow cloth disc on the side of their sun helmets in Palestine, plus a small bronze version of the cap badge on the puggaree at the front.

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Frogsmile,

Good point re the white on scarlet being similar to the 1902-08 style. Funnily enough, I had not really made the link between the two before. I was just thinking though, how the WW1 London Regiment embroidered ST colours seem very much a nod at each battalion's full dress uniform.

 

Steven,

Very interesting re the Hodden and thistle patch on the 1966 uniform. I wonder if this is similar to what you were describing: London Scottish TA 1966

 

Thanks for the info on the yellow disc, it is great to have some confirmation of this from such a specific source. It is also very useful to know that the 2/14th were equipped as for the 1st Bn, when in France. It possibly contradicts some of what I have read. The 2/20th History seemed to imply that the 60th Division units all adopted the shapes on the sides of steel helmets when in the BEF, but The Uniform of the London Scottish would seem to imply otherwise. That is, unless the London Scottish were the exception. At any rate, in this instance, the yellow disc on steel helmet would seem to be wrong.

 

Many thanks to you both,

 

Chris 

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58 minutes ago, Drew-1918 said:

 

 

Steven,

Very interesting re the Hodden and thistle patch on the 1966 uniform. I wonder if this is similar to what you were describing: London Scottish TA 1966

 

The very same, but I have no idea what the formation sign is. Blue, but what else, I know not.

 

(And I may well be in the 1978 Lord Mayor's Show but out of shot)

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 Had a quick look on Youtube but you all seemed to be on the quick march. ...and they only focussed on the bandsmen! ;)

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Some pictures from the IWM of the 1st London Regiment RF, with battle patch (Possibly on the left side of the helmet only). 

1st Lond RF Arras '17.jpg

The Battle of Arras, April - May 1917

"Orderly room staff of the 1st (City of London) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment), keep the unit's paperwork up to date in a trench near Guemappe, 29 April 1917."

I notice that the yellow disc appears quite light which is not always the case at this period of time, though I understand different film was sometimes used. I think their being outside in sunlight has also had an effect.

IWM

 

 

Also, post #74 updated- Kensingtons cloth ST and patch.  

Edited by Drew-1918
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  • 1 month later...

When I first thought about this subject, I wondered if there was any relationship between the colour and appearance of the different titles of each brigade. It may be blatantly obvious to some, but it was only looking at MBrockway's thread on London Regt battalions full dress uniforms that I realised that most battalions seem to be using some element of regimental colours from their full dress uniforms as a basis for the cloth shoulder title. 

Mark has kindly given me permission to use the table he produced.

7.png.a952148f9e760bbca85cc8cd13d848d0.png

 

59031659ad72a_9th-16thLon.png.65dc393e6b6213a30d49e133ea835b78.png

59079ab07b5a0_17thto28thFdress.png.ded5d8ec95feccc29e4807518ed35801.png

 

 

Edit: Photographic evidence of 2/23rd Bn wearing pagri patch added to Post #98 

Edited by Drew-1918
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Chris,

 

Battalion patches worn by 1/28th London Regt below the ARTISTS title. According to Wilf(Orasot) on the British badge forum worn by Officers & RSM and RQMS source IWM records. Mentioned on page 61 of 'Infantry Divisions Identification Schemes 1917' MHS Special Number 2016.

 

all the best Mark

IMG_6532.JPG

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On 10 January 2017 at 15:23, Steven Broomfield said:

The very same, but I have no idea what the formation sign is. Blue, but what else, I know not.

 

(And I may well be in the 1978 Lord Mayor's Show but out of shot)

 

I suspect it is the old London District sign, which I vaguely recall had a blue background and was worn on battle dress in the 1960s.  I think it had a red Saxon sword (vertical) through a crown like, yellow castellated tower.  Does that match?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I suspect it is the old London District sign, which I vaguely recall had a blue background and was worn on battle dress in the 1960s.  I think it had a red Saxon sword (vertical) through a crown like, yellow castellated tower?

I'll try and look over the weekend.

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5 hours ago, mark holden said:

Chris,

 

Battalion patches worn by 1/28th London Regt below the ARTISTS title. According to Wilf(Orasot) on the British badge forum worn by Officers & RSM and RQMS source IWM records. Mentioned on page 61 of 'Infantry Divisions Identification Schemes 1917' MHS Special Number 2016.

 

That's fantastic, Mark. I had really wondered about these, thank you very much indeed.

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Since the Artists have just been mentioned, does anyone know what patch they are wearing in these two photographs? I wondered if these pictures were post-war, since it looks a little like a Divisional sign and I think units started to wear these towards the end of the war and beyond. 

 

58f0f6df03cb8_1-28thpatch1.jpg.ace6f780dbe68700cbd054444eec1b8f.jpg

 

58f0f6e5ad02e_1-28thpatch3.jpg.379d8f043947426c13ac9ea6e4404776.jpg

 

58f0f6ee6ca37_1-28thpatch4.jpg.135ce434f766874a4f0d91b9253c0e89.jpg

 

58f0f6f2148f8_1-28thpatch5.jpg.3e9098c6ee7091c52555df3dfef2285d.jpg

 

 

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Looks inter-war to me, but no real idea on the patch.

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Isn't it the Dutch Tile sign of the 47th London Div? I don't think this was worn on uniform during WW1 but seems to have been used in later years.
 

Regards

 

Tocemma

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Edited by tocemma
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I wondered that too, but I didn't think the Artists were ever in the 47th Division, so I was a little confused.

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If it's inter-war, I'd assume anything's possible in terms of attachments to formations.

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You have both just reminded me of this Queen's Westminsters one I have from 1927. Silly me. 

 

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QWRR.jpg.e95ab5e722236fa6f79cb9a3846822c6.jpg

 

Many thanks

 

 

 

 

Edited by Drew-1918
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On 03/03/2017 at 04:55, Drew-1918 said:

.... It may be blatantly obvious to some, but it was only looking at MBrockway's thread on London Regt battalions full dress uniforms that I realised that most battalions seem to be using some element of regimental colours from their full dress uniforms as a basis for the cloth shoulder title. 

 

 

Though said thread has languished of late, it is not forgotten and will be revived/refreshed when I get some more spare time ;)

 

It is dovetailing with some other work I'm doing on building a map of all the London area RVC drill hall locations.

 

That's another backburner too though!

 

Mark

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