London Regiment cloth shoulder titles and patches

[Drew-1918]

Possibly 1/9th Bn. ?

On ebay recently

 

2/9th Bn. ?

Courtesy of GWF member Grovetown.

Edited 24 May , 2017 by Drew-1918
Detail about the source

[Drew-1918]

From Albert to his wife, June 1919. My own collection.

Edited 21 November , 2016 by Drew-1918

[mark holden]

Chris,

 

See my album on the British Badge Forum if it helps.

 

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=3044

 

regards

 

Mark

[Drew-1918]

Thanks very much, Mark. That is a great help as most of my knowledge on the subject consists only of written descriptions. It is wonderful to see actual examples of these titles. It is also really helpful for my project with regard to colour and font.

 

Many thanks,

 

Chris

Edited 9 December , 2016 by Drew-1918

[Drew-1918]

I would really love to know what cloth shoulder title, if any, the 10th London Regiment wore. The following photograph of "Rfn. Evan J. Richards. 2/10th London Rgt.", may offer a slight clue. He appears to be wearing a dark coloured shoulder title, though it could also be the dark green square battle patch of the 2/10th Londons. 

 

 

There is also the following description at the IWM:

London Regiment, 2/10th Bn.

I wonder if "A curved green bar..." refers to a shoulder title. The green square and small squares must be the battalion patch and company squares respectively. 

However, the following description seems to refer to this bar as denoting HQ:

London Rgt., 2/10th Bn. HQ Coy

"An emerald green bar"

[Drew-1918]

Soldiers of the 2/10th Bn. wearing what I think is the dark green battalion patch. Near Sailly Laurette, 8th August 1918.

IWM

 

IWM

 

IWM

[Grovetown]

On 11/21/2016 at 14:06, Drew-1918 said:

From auction sites:

 

 

At the risk of sounding churlish, they're my scans of items in my collection ackerchully...

 

Less churlishly, here's a QWR on a jacket for you.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[Drew-1918]

Not at all. I cannot think of a more polite and less churlish way to make your point. I am very sorry, please accept my apologies. 

 

Posting another member's pictures unacknowledged was the last thing I wanted to do.  For this reason, though I collected a lot of pictures from different threads and auction sites a while back, it was only my intention to post those from the auction sites.  It has been hard finding the time to post, and in the interval I think I have got confused with my evidence. I only realised this after seeing your post. Once again, many apologies. Thank you very much for your kindness in posting the 16th Londons one. 

 

Chris

 

Edited 30 November , 2016 by Drew-1918

[MBrockway]

On 18/09/2016 at 14:54, Steven Broomfield said:

I'd agree that the London/Gordon/Scottish title is post-GW. The official affiliation with the Gordons wasn't made until after the Great War (can't remember when, off-hand), so it would be unlikely to pre-date that.

AO 250 of 1916 published 12 July 1916 affiliated the London Scottish to the Gordons and the Liverpool Scottish to the QOCH ...

 

 

Similar AO 250 London Regt battalion affiliations to the KRRC and RB made little difference to the day-to-day running of the battalions, as they were, IIRC, still administered by local TFA's in London rather than the rifle RHQs at the Rifles Depot.  There were lots of transfers between the LR and KRRC/RB units (in both directions), but that had been the case before July 1916 anyway.

 

These KRRC and RB re-affiliations certainly made no impact on LR shoulder titles during the Great War that I am aware of, so I think your conclusions about the Gordons ST are still likely to be sound.

 

You'll know better than me, but I think there was also a history of the London Scottish sending men to the Gordons in the Boer War despite being at the time 1st Volunteer Battalion of the Rifle Brigade!

 

Mark

 

 

[squirrel]

The London Irish formed a service company for the Royal Irish Rifles for the Boer War despite any other affiliations.

[Drew-1918]

Thanks for your thoughts gentlemen. The various affiliations, even when they have no apparent bearing on the 'day to day' running and things like that, are something I really need to learn more about. 

[Drew-1918]

1/10th and 1/11th London Regiment patches.

 

*I presume the triangle on the pagri is also inverted though this is not the case in the 60th Division. 

Information from 'Military Divisions, Identification Schemes, 1917' by Mike Hibberd and Gary Gibbs

 

Confirmation on style and positioning of the 1/11th Bn. pagri flash from a photo posted by Robins2 on the 'Postcards' thread (post #1042).

Edited 8 May , 2017 by Drew-1918
To add link to postcard evidence.

[Drew-1918]

"...an emerald bar." IWM

 

Battalion patch: "...a green square" IWM

 

 

Small squares denote company. Source: IWM

* Patches also added to previous posts and title of thread changed.

 

**For update on this see post #143

 

Edited 13 June , 2018 by Drew-1918
To add more detail

[Drew-1918]

1916/17

 

Edited 12 December , 2016 by Drew-1918
To add date

[Steve B]

Chris,

 

Just to add to the debate about the 10th London Regiment, I've acquired a fair number of photographs of both the 1/10th and 2/10th over the years, but only one of them shows any specific cloth shoulder title being worn. As you can see from the picture below (date unknown), the curved bar worn at the top of the shoulder would tie in the the IWM example of a green curved bar for HQ Company, 2/10th Londons. I have had a good look using a magnifying glass and there seems to be no lettering embroidered on this patch.

 

 

 

 

The reference to small coloured patches for the rifle Companies of the 2/10th Londons in the IWM collection is intriguing and I can't say that I have ever seen any images with them being worn. 

 

More pictures to follow.................

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve B]

(Continues) Another group photo of what would appear to be HQ Coy of the 2nd Battalion shows most troops wearing only the square green battle patch. (If the photograph in "Death's Men" is anything to go by, the Signal Sergeant with the MM in the front row looks to be the Henry Winter, the father of author Denis Winter, which at least gives us a date for this photograph of Third Ypres or after). 

 

 

 

All told, I'd say the evidence suggests that no specific "Hackney" or "10th London Regiment" cloth shoulder title was ever produced for wear by the Hackney Gurkhas.

 

Regards,

 

Steve 

[Drew-1918]

That is all absolutely fascinating! Thank you so much for all that information and for kindly sharing those photos. I can only wonder at why they did not have any cloth shoulder titles when so many others adopted them. Then again, if patches are being brought in to confuse the enemy(?) and distinguish different units from each other in battle, perhaps the real question is why did so many of the other units continue with the shoulder titles! I have often wondered why wear the two together.

 

Regarding the small squares: it crossed my mind that they were divisional rather than battalion specific (with the 47th Division company bars in mind), but similarly to what you say, I have not come across them before. Also, the 10th do seem quite original in other respects so why not the same in this. 

 

I don't suppose you know if the 1/11th pagri flash was inverted, do you?

 

Once again, many thanks for you input. It is greatly appreciated. 

 

Regards,

 

Chris

Edited 21 December , 2016 by Drew-1918
Format of text

[Steve B]

Yes, it is strange that the 10th Londons never adopted such patches when so many other battalions of the London Regiment did so. I'm not sure whether they would have been Army issue or whether they would have been ordered and paid for by individual units (for instance, in the way that the 2nd London Scottish had privately purchased pagri badges for their sun helmets when they went to the Middle East). If they were funded at regimental level, the 10th Londons, having only been formed in 1912 and not being the most fashionable or wealthy of regiments, might simply not have had sufficient cash reserves to pay for such an extravagance. Just a thought.

 

Can't really help with the question about the 1/11th London Regiment pagri flash. I do recall seeing a number of photos at the IWM of members of the 1/11th in Gallipoli, Egypt and Palestine when I have been researching the 10th Londons but can't remember if any of the images showed the regimental flash being worn. Might be worth a look.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Drew-1918]

Thanks Steve. Apologies, I meant the 1/10th pagri flash. I'll have a look at the IWM though, and see if I can find anything. 

 

Interesting what you mention regarding the private purchase issue and certainly sounds very plausible to me. 

 

Many thanks,

 

Chris

Edited 10 December , 2016 by Drew-1918

[Steve B]

And here's an original example of the navy blue and red shoulder title for the 2nd London Regiment, as worn by Cpl James Stevens of the 2/2nd Battalion.  Shot against the stunning backdrop of my hallway carpet!

 

Apologies. Only meant to attach one image!

[Drew-1918]

Hello again Steve, 

That's fantastic, what a lovely example. I wonder if that is the same ST as in my postcard of Cpl. Billington. The '2' and 'L' look very similar. Billington was apparently 2/2nd Bn., too. I wonder if the 1/2nd were wearing the white ones, and the 2/2nd the blue. 

Many thanks indeed for that. 

 

Regards, 

 

Chris

 

 

Apologies for posting again, but thought good for comparison.

Edited 4 April , 2017 by Drew-1918
Update

[Drew-1918]

Rfn  R. White 12th London Regiment

IWM Link

 

From my own collection.

 

 

1/12th London Rgt. Officers

Worn on back of helmet and tunic.

IWM says this adopted Feb ‘15

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 April , 2017 by Drew-1918
To add RP of cloth ST

[Drew-1918]

1/13th Bn.

 

 

 

IWM

 

 

2/13th Bn. 

 

Arthur's excellent thread on cloth insignia describes a silver and grey rose for officers- post #80, here

IWM 

The above illustration is based on information from the IWM and provided by Orasot and Mike_H at the British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum. With thanks. It replaces a speculative drawing I made. Mike_H adds that it was worn only in France and discontinued when they went to Salonika. From the 1919 Questionnaire in the IWM library.

Edited 19 October , 2020 by Drew-1918
#1 To add photograph. #2 To add Officers tunic diagram.

[Drew-1918]

I have been trying to make the cloth shoulder title pictures a bit more realistic (post #47). I have got about as far as I can go with PowerPoint in that sense. If some of the titles look a bit wonky, that is because where possible, I have used actual titles as a background template.   

Edited 30 December , 2016 by Drew-1918
Typos

[Drew-1918]

14th Bn London Scottish

 

Was this embroidered shoulder title worn during WW1? There is currently a lack of images and no documentation to prove this. 

See here: London Scottish- shoulder title changes

Cloth shoulder title Regimental Badges.com

 

1/14th Bn patch.

IWM

 

Small blue tourie worn on left side of helmet. Later discontinued as it advertised to the Germans when the London Scottish were in the line. 

'The Uniform of the London Scottish'. With thanks to 'Jelly Terror' for this information. 

 

 

2/14th Bn.

 

 

 

 

 

The 2nd Battalion London Scottish were in Salonika and Palestine from November 1916 to May 1918

IWM

 

'The Second Twentieth' by Capt. W. R. Elliot, M.C., offers some good evidence in trying to work out battalion patches for the 60th Division. See page 26 below for a description of its first days with the BEF:

 

 

From this and the following illustrations, I presume that these 'flashes' were worn in both France, Salonika and then on into Palestine:

 

 

I am a bit confused as to whether they wore steel helmets or topees in Salonka though. The first illustration shows a steel helmet, whilst the following postcard of the 2/23rd Bn. shows a soldier in topee:

 

Edit: In the Uniform of the London Scottish 1859-1959, by J. O. Robson and posted by Steven Broomfield here, it states that the 2/14th "...was clothed as for the 1st until it went East", which might imply that they did not wear the yellow disc,illustrated at the top, in F&F.

 

...................................................................

 

 

 

 

 

Private purchase pagri badge for 2nd Battalion London Scottish. Mentioned by Steven Broomfield in post #103. 

Source: Collection of 'Jelly Terror', BCMB Forum. With thanks.

Edited 11 February , 2018 by Drew-1918
Further detail