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Drew-1918

London Regiment cloth shoulder titles and patches

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Drew-1918

Hello,

 

Please could anyone offer any tips or pointers on the following images I have drawn up of London Rgt cloth shoulder titles. This is a topic I have become more and more interested in, and I just thought I would have a go at collating information I have seen. It is just for my own research purposes, but you never know, I thought perhaps it might help any new members in the future. I have not managed to get hold of Waring's Identification Pamphlets, so I have no idea how far I am just duplicating information from there. I should also say that as I am only using PowerPoint, the images are pretty amateur. 

 

Most of the information was obtained from written descriptions online at the IWM. In addition, I have also used the GWF, old postcards, and searched online auction sites. I would be very grateful if anyone could comment on any aspects, for example, colour, shape, lettering etc, but also, if any titles do not look like they are WW1. The IWM is not always clear as to what period a shoulder title comes from, and I excluded any white lettering on a red background as being WWII. However, there are others that I am not sure about. I will update the images and erase all the annoying notes, as and when I can confirm details. Many thanks for any help you may be able to provide.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

 

FOR MOST RECENT UPDATES SEE Post No. 168

(I have now actually been to the IWM and seen quite a few of these titles (May 2017). The pictures in post #47 are in some cases quite different to what I had imagined from the written descriptions).

 

Edit #1: To add details suggested from posts 4 to 10.

Cloth Title No. 1.jpg

Cloth Title No. 2.jpg

Cloth Title No. 3.jpg

Edited by Drew-1918
#1 Organisation #2 Change to thread title #3 To add a link. #4 New information

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Arthur

Hello Chris 

 

I have checked out Waring's I-d Pamphlet for you and I found no descriptions given for the 10th, 20th, 33rd and 34th Bns.

 

Should I come across anything in the quarterly Formation Signs I'll let you know.

 

Regards 

Arthur

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Drew-1918

Hello Arthur, 

 

That's very kind of you, thanks very much indeed. I appreciate it. 

 

Many thanks, 

 

Chris

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7t2ndswinger

In my files from the IWM collection.

 

17th LONDON.  Pale Green on Black rectangle

29,30,31,32.  All Red on Black small rectangle

 

Sorry I can't post the images.

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Drew-1918

That's fantastic! Thank you very much. I'll try and put those together and put them up here too.

Thanks again,

 

Chris

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wainfleet

An excellent effort. My only concern is the V London which I think may be VTC. I'll be happy to stand corrected though.

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Drew-1918

Thanks very much for your kind words of encouragement. 

To be honest, the 'V London' just doesn't feel right at all, does it? Not that I am an expert. If I remember correctly (I am away from my notes at the moment), the IWM described it as "5th Londons, officers", which confused me quite a bit. But then again, it also described the small black and green 'LRB' title as "officers" as well, and I'm sure that is not true. I've seen so many postcards of ORs with that one. VTC sounds more like it.

 

Many thanks for your advice,

 

Chris

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tocemma

Here are some examples I used to have. Sorry poor quality pre-digital photos. Serif letters on the Q.V.R. I also have a photo of an unworn pair of shoulder titles '2/3rd London Field Ambulance' Red serif letters on khaki. I'll dig it out for you. May have a few others too.

I never did identify the Wat Tyler swords/daggers, the black I guess is a rifles unit not sure about the coloured one, but it was most likely one of a sequence, different highlight colours for other units.

The London Scottish thistle was embroidered on hodden grey, that one might be post WW1 though.

The red triangle and bomb are unrelated.

 

Regards

 

Tocemma

Lon Resize.jpg

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tocemma

A few more for style of typeface. Th artillery flash was introduced in 1917 for all artillery units. This example has the added dagger.

img883 resize.jpg

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tocemma

A few more

img884 resize.jpg

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Drew-1918

Those are all absolutely fantastic, thank you so much for your generosity in sharing these images here. It's great to see confirmation of many of the written descriptions I have seen. I will try and update the diagrams with some of the detail given in the photos- starting with a serif font!

 

Many thanks again, 

 

Chris

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Drew-1918

Thanks again to you all for your help and advice. I have attempted to add details to the pictures from your suggestions above. It has been a little hard trying to get fonts to match accurately, but very interesting trying.

I will have a think and try and make the images a bit sharper. It seems to be a problem that occurs when I scale down the images to post on the Forum. 

 

Regards,

 

Chris

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Drew-1918

...and here is the information I got from from the IWM and on which I based many of the pictures. It might be useful in the future in order to see where I made certain guesses as to meaning, and anything like that. 

 

1st London Rgt: 

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 1st (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), comprising an arc of white fabric embroidered on the obverse with "1ST LONDON R.F." in red thread.

-A single embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 1st (Reserve) Battalion The London Regiment, comprising an arc of khaki wool with rectangle below its centre, embroidered on the obverse with "1st (RES) LONDON" on the arc with below" R.F.", all in white thread.

 

2nd London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 2nd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), comprising an arc of dark blue wool embroidered on the obverse with "2ND LONDON REGT" in serif letters, in red thread.

An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 2nd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), comprising an arc of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "2ND LONDON" above "RF" in serif letters in red thread. (?)

 

3rd London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title to the 3rd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), the title comprises an arc-shaped base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "3rd LONDON" in red thread

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title 3rd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), the title comprises an arc of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "3rd LONDON" above "R.F." in serif letters in red thread. (?)

 

4th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 4th (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), comprising a trapezium-shaped base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "4" above "C.O.L." above "R.F." in red thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 4th (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), comprising a piece of buff-coloured fabric embroidered on the obverse with "4" above "C.O.L." above "R.F." in red thread.

 

5th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 5th (City of London) Battalion (London Rifle Brigade), comprising an arc of black fabric embroidered on the obverse with "L.R.B." in green thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 5th (City of London) Battalion (London Rifle Brigade), comprising a trapezium-shaped base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "LRB" in black thread. A single green-coloured fabric strip sewn on the reverse for fastening.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 5th (City of London) Battalion (London Rifle Brigade), comprising a trapezium-shaped base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "V" above "LONDON", the latter on an arc, all in white thread. There is a wide buff-coloured fabric strip sewn on the reverse for fastening. [V.T.C.? see post 6]

 

6th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 6th (City of London) Battalion (Rifles), comprising an arc of rifle green fabric embroidered on the obverse with "6TH LONDON". (Colour of letters?).

 

8th London Rgt: 

-A woven shoulder title for the 8th (City of London) Battalion (Post Office Rifles), a doubled-over strip of thin buff-coloured fabric woven with "2nd P.O.R." in blue thread.

 

9th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 9th (County of London) Battalion (Queen Victoria's Rifles), an arc of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with lettering "Q.V.R" in brown thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 9th (County of London) Battalion (Queen Victoria's Rifles), a rectangular base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with lettering "Q.V.R" in black thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 9th (County of London) Battalion (Queen Victoria's Rifles), the title comprises a trapezium-shaped base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with lettering "QVR" in black thread. A single buff-coloured fabric strip sewn on the reverse for fastening.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 9th (County of London) Battalion (Queen Victoria's Rifles), a rectangular base of khaki wool, with corners cut off, embroidered on the obverse with lettering "Q.V.R" in black thread.

 

11th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 11th (County of London) Battalion (Finsbury Rifles), an arc of green wool embroidered on the obverse with "11TH LONDON" in red thread.

 

12th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 12th (County of London) Battalion (The Rangers), an arc of green felt embroidered on the obverse with "RANGERS." in red thread.

-2/12th : two green shoulder titles with red letters RANGERS above green rectangles. (on a Khaki square?)

 

13th London Rgt:

-1/13th Bn. curved khaki title with KENSINGTON in red

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 13th (County of London) Battalion (Kensington), an arc of khaki fabric embroidered on the obverse with -"KENSINGTON" above "1" in red thread.

 

14th London Rgt:

-LONDON SCOTTISH in blue on khaki half-oval

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 14th (County of London) Battalion (London Scottish), a trapezium base with domed top of khaki fabric embroidered on the obverse with "LONDON", on an arc, above "SCOTTISH" in blue thread.

 

15th London Rgt:

-1/15th Bn: CIVIL SERVICE RIFLES in red and on curved khaki cloth

-*An arc of fabric embroidered on the obverse with "15th LONDON" in red thread.

 

16th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 16th (County of London) Battalion (Queen's Westminster Rifles), a trapezium-shaped base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "QWKRR" (Queen's Westminster King's Royal Rifles) in black thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 16th (County of London) Battalion (Queen's Westminster Rifles), the title comprises an arc of thin khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "QWR" in red thread.

-2/16th Bn. Q.W.R. in red on curved khaki material

 

17th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 2nd Battalion the 17th (County of London) Battalion (Poplar and Stepney Rifles), comprising a rectangular-shaped base of black wool embroidered on the obverse with "2/17.L.R." in buff-coloured thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 17th (County of London) Battalion (Poplar and Stepney Rifles), beig an arc of black wool embroidered on the obverse with "P&S.R." in pale blue thread.

 

18th London Rgt:

-A printed cloth shoulder title for the 18th (County of London) Battalion (London Irish Rifles), an arc of dark green fabric printed on the obverse with "LONDON IRISH RIFLES" in black.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 18th (County of London) Battalion (London Irish Rifles), in khaki wool, an arc with a rectangular addition below, embroidered on the obverse with "LONDON IRISH" on the arc with below "2/18"above "LR" in buff thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 18th (County of London) Battalion (London Irish Rifles), an arc of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "LONDON IRISH" in green thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 18th (County of London) Battalion (London Irish Rifles), a trapezium base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "LIR" in black thread. A single buff-coloured fabric strip sewn on the reverse for fastening.

 

19th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 2nd Battalion the 19th (County of London) Battalion (St Pancras), an arc of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "2ND 19 LR" in sky blue thread.

 

21st London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 21st (County of London) Battalion (First Surrey Rifles), a short arc of green fabric embroidered on the obverse with "F.S.R." in red thread.

 

23rd London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 23rd (County of London) Battalion, an arc of khaki fabric embroidered on the obverse with "23rd. LONDON" in red thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 23rd (County of London) Battalion, a rectangle of khaki fabric embroidered on the obverse with "2/23.LR" in red thread.

 

24th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 24th (County of London) Battalion (The Queen's), a shallow arc of Khaki fabric embroidered on the obverse with "THE QUEEN'S" in red thread.

 

25th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 25th (County of London) Battalion (Cyclists), a rectangle of black/blue wool embroidered on the obverse with "LONDON" in an arc, above "25" above "REGT." in red thread.

 

28th London Rgt:

-A printed cloth shoulder title for the 28th (County of London) Battalion (Artists' Rifles), an arc of dark green fabric printed on the obverse with "ARTISTS RIFLES" in black.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 28th (County of London) Battalion (Artists' Rifles), an arc of grey wool embroidered on the obverse with "ARTISTS" in brown thread.

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 28th (County of London) Battalion (Artists' Rifles), a trapezium-shaped base of khaki wool embroidered on the obverse with "ARTISTS" in black thread.

-1/28th Bn: ARTISTS embroidered in dark grey on grey

-ARTISTS embroidered in black on grey

 

Edited by Drew-1918
*To add detail about 15th Londons. **To add 5th Londons detail.

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Drew-1918

From my own collection, I believe this to be an example of the khaki '1st London Regiment (Res) Bn', shown above:

1st Lond CST Far.jpg

Sent to "Mr G Barnett, 1st (R) Garr[?] Suff Regt, Gravesend"

 

1st Lon CST close-up.jpg

 

5924e8b9eedd7_1stBn(Res)clothST.png.5e3b9c5a3d0a937f8992a0d7f3047f08.png

Image drawn from original at the IWM.

 

Edited by Drew-1918
To refine illustration with new information

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Drew-1918

Rfn. George Alfred Tubbs, 1st London Rgt., Royal Fusiliers. KIA 3rd May, 1917. From the Imperial War Museum Collection.

 

G.Tubbs 1st Lon.jpg

 

1st Lon RF.jpg

 

The IWM does not describe this style of cloth shoulder title in its collection, but here it is in a fine photograph of a very brave chap. I presume the letters are red. They certainly look very dark.

IWM link

 

590f86dd37fed_1stBnresLond.png.4e8f4d0ccb2c191cff65c619721b58df.png

On second thoughts, it is possible that he is wearing the white 1st Bn. reserve title as posted by Mark Holden post #22.

Edited by Drew-1918
To add alternative ST

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Grovetown
On 7/20/2016 at 12:11, Drew-1918 said:

 

 

12th London Rgt:

-An embroidered cloth shoulder title for the 12th (County of London) Battalion (The Rangers), an arc of green felt embroidered on the obverse with "RANGERS." in red thread.

-2/12th : two green shoulder titles with red letters RANGERS above green rectangles. (on a Khaki square?)

 

 

 

Mark Holden must be away, otherwise I sure he would have shared this great image of a Ranger earlier.

 

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

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Drew-1918

That is a wonderful image! Thank you so much for sharing it here. 

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

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Drew-1918

I have just been thinking about the 2/12th title above, and I wondered if I had misunderstood the IWM description I quoted in post #13.

"2/12th : two green shoulder titles with red letters RANGERS above green rectangles."

 

I interpreted that in the following way: 

2-12th Rangers #2.jpg

 

However, I wondered if that was wrong and if the IWM description actually refers to a title the same as CQMS Cook is wearing?

2-12th Rangers #1.jpg

 

If anyone could clarify this for me, it would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

 

Chris 

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Drew-1918

Following on from the 1st London RF posts, here is another one from the IWM 'Bond of Sacrifice' collection. 

Rfn. A. Skinner, London Rgt. Royal Fusiliers:

 

I do not know to which battalion he belongs, but he appears to be wearing the same title as Rfn. Tubbs, above. The only A. Skinner I can find at the moment is Arthur Skinner of the 1st Londons, BEF 18/7/18 to 7/9/18. I note the photo was taken on 1st October, 1918, in Fulham, so that is a possibility. 

 

IWM Link

IMG_0609.JPG

Edited by Drew-1918
Link had stopped working

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Arthur
5 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I have just been thinking about the 2/12th title above, and I wondered if I had misunderstood the IWM description I quoted in post #13.

"2/12th : two green shoulder titles with red letters RANGERS above green rectangles."

 

I interpreted that in the following way: 

2-12th Rangers #2.jpg

 

However, I wondered if that was wrong and if the IWM description actually refers to a title the same as CQMS Cook is wearing?

2-12th Rangers #1.jpg

 

If anyone could anyone clarify this for me, it would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

 

Chris 

Hello Chris 

 

I have checked out Waring's I-d Pamphlet and the title given is as the second illustration and was embroidered on felt. The rectangle was 2 1/2" X 1" felt. John Players Army, Corps and Division Signs cigarette card series also show your second illustration as above for the 2nd/12th Bn and a red 1 1/2" cotton square for 12th Bn O/Rs. A black silhouette of a Maltese cross a similar shape to that of the KRRC minus the crown and tablet was worn by officers and was made of felt, no size was given.

 

Regards 

Arthur

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Drew-1918

Hello Arthur,

 

Once again, thank you very much for your help and for taking the trouble to look that up for me.

It is now apparent to me that I was thinking of these cloth STs in isolation but clearly I have to consider them in conjunction with these battalion patches as well.

Many thanks,

 

Chris

 

Here are the battalion patches which I believe were used by 1st - 4th London Regiments (1916-17). In process of working out 1918.

56th Div Lon RF.jpg

 

58th Div Lon RF.jpg

 

Sources are various, but include online descriptions at the IWM, the books- 'Infantry Divisions, Identification Schemes 1917' by Mike Hibberd & Gary Gibbs, 'British Battle Insignia 1914-18' by Mike Chappell, 'British Territorial Units' by Westlake & Chappell, and numerous discussions and pictures in threads on the GWF and British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum.

 

Edited by Drew-1918
To add details about battalion patches

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mark holden

Morning Chris,

 

What an excellent and informative project. My late entry to this thread is due to my being away at the very hot and dusty War and Peace show in Kent. GT has kindly copied my thread on Claud Cook. I add a few examples of London Regiment titles in my collection. Of note the 13th Londons which has the numeral below Londons. I am really pleased that there is a resurgent interest in WW1 cloth titles. 

 

If I can help further do let me know

 

regards

 

Mark

IMG_5151.JPG

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Drew-1918

Hello Mark, 

 

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement and kind offer of help. To be honest, I have so many questions, I don't know where to start! I have to hop on a plane home for the summer, in a few hours, so I'll have a think and try to digest all the info above. There are a few things I have to do regarding the lettering and shape etc. It is all very interesting and it is so nice how people have chipped in and helped out. 

 

That 13th Londons one is very interesting, and I had thought that perhaps the similar looking 2nd & 3rd London ones must be wrong. It would appear not. And there's another London Rgt (Royal Fusilier) one, too! I can't help but wonder why they had so many different variations, who wore white, dark blue or khaki, and what the reasons for this might have been. 

 

Many thanks again,

 

Chris

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NigelS
On ‎19‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 16:06, Drew-1918 said:

... the IWM described it as "5th Londons, officers", which confused me quite a bit. But then again, it also described the small black and green 'LRB' title as "officers" as well, and I'm sure that is not true. I've seen so many postcards of ORs with that one. VTC sounds more like it.

 

Chris, just come across this mention (from 1916) of the first use of the LRB green & black title in The History of the London Rifle Brigade 1859-1919 which makes no mention of them being specifically for officers:

Early in June shoulder patches, with "L.R.B." in green on a black background, were taken in use in place of the metal shoulder plates issued, a change which satisfied a wish of long standing. The patches were paid for by the men themselves for quite a long time, but, after special recruitment for the regiment was stopped, they were provided out of regimental funds

NigelS

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Drew-1918

Thanks Nigel, that's very interesting and useful to know. I wonder if officers ever wore them at all?

Cheers,

 

Chris

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