Guest Benoit Douville Posted 3 December , 2004 Share Posted 3 December , 2004 First of all, my apology if it has been discussed before here. The German High Command decided to launch a massive attack to win the War. They selected General Ludendorff to lead the attack. 200 Divisions participated in this offensive. On March 21 1918 the German divisions went over the top and attacked a mere 5 British Divisions. The British soldiers broke and ran in the face of the onslaught. The stalemate of trench fighting had been broken and the German army could advance freely.The Allies were forced to react, and did so by forming a joint command between the British and French Armies. This allowed them to counter attack the German offensive. The German Army was able to drive to the outskirts of Paris, but there the offensive ran out of steam. The plan had failed. I would like to know what are your point of view about this offensive, do you think the Germans had a chance to win the War in 1918? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 3 December , 2004 Share Posted 3 December , 2004 The British soldiers broke and ran in the face of the onslaught. Wow! I like that, only your second post and you don't shy away from bold statements. There is quite a bit already posted on the Forum about this, although I am sure you find this post in particular will get a robust response. Welcome to the Forum! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 3 December , 2004 Share Posted 3 December , 2004 Hi Benoit I certainy wont debate the British Ran bit, as some parts of the line did, but others didnt & as a result many brave & courageous stories came from it - from both sides. As with any major historical action, comentators debate effectively both ways !! And I like the boldness of your opening statement too! However, I believe they could have won the war in 1918 myself. He picked the right spot in the line to attack & did very well to achieve the surprise he did - especially managing to amass close to 10,000 artillery pieces for the offensive. If he hadnt of switched his offensive patterns to farther north, it may well have been a completely different outcome. Old Luddendorf should have kept to his oroginal plan in my humble opinion. Although, being British, and having lost my Great Grandfather on 23rd March, Im naturally pleased he didnt! Take care Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted 3 December , 2004 Share Posted 3 December , 2004 A quick answer (as I'm going out in a mo): The German offensive(s) of Spring 1918 were a series of tactical successes that achieved no strategic objective and cost the Germans the cream of their remaining infantry resources. In short, they weakened themselves more than they did the Allies, relatively. Thus overstretched they were ripe for the series of Allied counter-offensives that ended the war. In my opinion, they were a mistake on the German part. Cheers, Ste PS I'll take your 'broke and ran' statement as a sweeping generalisationamde in the interest of a concise post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frie Posted 3 December , 2004 Share Posted 3 December , 2004 Look at the map about the German attack in 1918 - See the topic Kemmel Hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 3 December , 2004 Share Posted 3 December , 2004 Hi Benoit 200 Divisions participated in this offensive. On March 21 1918 the German divisions went over the top and attacked a mere 5 British Divisions. Where did you get these figures, there were 33 British Divisions covering the 50 mile of front attacked on the 21st March 1918, four of these were G.H.Q. Divisions, who came into the battle during its course. I believe there were 65 German Divisions, three of which were in reserve on opening day. The German Army was able to drive to the outskirts of Paris, but there the offensive ran out of steam. The plan had failed. You have got me there, I did not know that places like Moreuil or Villers-Bretonneux were part of the outskirts of Paris ? The British soldiers broke and ran in the face of the onslaught. Some did I am sure but General Gough know he was out numbered and that there would be no help for many days, he planed a graduel and ordered retirement until reinforcements arrived. Yes some parts of units did go out of controll and at times there were gaps, one gap on the 28th March was nine miles wild due to French troops falling back. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 4 December , 2004 Share Posted 4 December , 2004 Just one from my 'special pleading' angle.. the Machine Gun Corps certainly did NOT run in the face of the St Michael Offensive. The number of gallantry awards to the MGC increases almost exponentially come the late spring/early summer 1918 (as they reach the London Gazette). And the point is - they were not recommended in many cases by their own chian of command, but rather by the infantry battalions they were supporting. I have lost count of the number of accounts I have seen along the lines of... 'we pulled back in good order...the Vickers kept firing as we did... then the MGs fell silent..but they did not fall back with us..' Cometh the hour, etc, etc. The 'Suicide Club' didn't run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 4 December , 2004 Share Posted 4 December , 2004 While the offensive did accomplish milage not seen for years ... no, the German's couldn't have won. The outskirts of Paris is a bit much ... but to do that they would have had to demoralize the Allied forces so that with the rising American tide, they wouldn't want to continue. If they had knocked Britain or France out of the war - then they had a chance. Winning ... nope time was not on their side ... with what were they going to feed Germany? IF they had reserved enough strength to keep the stalemate going they might have bettered their bargaining position though ... Broke and ran ... or was it scurrying for cover ... yes, there were units out of control, but I'd say it was a bit much for a generalization ... Besides the British had their new Battle Bowlers to stymie the German Shock troops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Benoit Douville Posted 4 December , 2004 Share Posted 4 December , 2004 Hi all, I appreciate the input of everybody who participated in this debate so far. About the British soldiers running away, I didn't want to be offensive to anyone, the World War I soldiers were in most part very brave and courageous but it is true that the Senior British military commanders lost control of the situation. The German attack was the biggest breakthrough in three years of warfare on the Western Front. The British gave up to the Germans the Somme region! where so many British and German soldiers had been killed in the battle of 1916. About those Divisions involved, I got those figures from an old school book from my history course here in Canada. What are your source? I am interested to know how many Divisions were really involved on both sides. Steve, Can you elaborate more about the decision of Luddendorf switched his offensive patterns to farther north that cost him and the Germans the defeat. Regards to all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 4 December , 2004 Share Posted 4 December , 2004 And the Beds, Northants & Royal Fusiliers of the 54th Bgde held the Crozat canal until the flanks folded (the poor old Northants recorded a couple of dozen at muster on the 23rd, but were still in the line next day - dont quite know how you can be with a handful left, but they reformed nonetheless), & the Buff's 'Awkward Squad' stayed put & only gave up when ran outta ammo (I did enjoy that particular story I must say), & Manchesters on their hill, and the Leicesters' rearguard actions, and, and, and ... The 3rd & 5th Armies were full of hero's, all things considered. Ill shut up now, promise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 4 December , 2004 Share Posted 4 December , 2004 Steve, Can you elaborate more about the decision of Luddendorf switched his offensive patterns to farther north that cost him and the Germans the defeat. Probably from Moore's 'See How they Ran' mate. Will have a nose tommorrow as Im a bit tired now (its stupid oclock here in England). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward_N_Kelly Posted 7 December , 2004 Share Posted 7 December , 2004 Hi Benoit I certainy wont debate the British Ran bit, as some parts of the line did, but others didnt & as a result many brave & courageous stories came from it - from both sides. As with any major historical action, comentators debate effectively both ways !! And I like the boldness of your opening statement too! However, I believe they could have won the war in 1918 myself. He picked the right spot in the line to attack & did very well to achieve the surprise he did - especially managing to amass close to 10,000 artillery pieces for the offensive. If he hadnt of switched his offensive patterns to farther north, it may well have been a completely different outcome. Old Luddendorf should have kept to his oroginal plan in my humble opinion. Although, being British, and having lost my Great Grandfather on 23rd March, Im naturally pleased he didnt! Take care Steve Extremely poor logistics and an inability to sustain the offensive "done for it" as effectively as it had done for anything that the British and French had attempted to that date. It was the ability of the Allies to sustain their offensive after crossing the old battlefields, that won the war for them (though it was indeed a very near run thing - they would have had to have paused by mid-November or thereabouts but the war ended just itn time). Cheers Edward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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