British at Verdun

[Guest Albean]

I saw some material pertaining to Verdun in which someone claimed to have a British forebear at the battle. My grandfather Michael John O'Neill claimed to have fought there. He was severely wounded and named his son John Verdun O'Neill to commemorate the event. Everything I read suggests that he was wrong. Were there any British forces there?

Edited 15 July , 2016 by Albean
Misspelling

[bob lembke]

My father fought there, being wounded twice, in a Prussian Guard flame-thrower company. I have studied the battle extensively for 16 years, and also have my father's extensive oral history. He did say that he never fought any British troops. That did not prevent him from uttering a generalized opinion of their relative merits vis a vis the French on the offense and the defense.

 

I cannot recall ever reading any mention of a British unit fighting there. Possibly there were some observers, with OR assistants.

 

I am not expert on finding out data on UK troops, but I have read enough in the Forum to realize that there are fairly good sources which other Pals might assist you with. I do believe that some records were lost in a fire. 

Could he have possibly joined the French Foreign Legion?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

23 hours ago, Albean said:

I saw some material pertaining to Verdun in which someone claimed to have a British forebear at the battle. My grandfather Michael John O'Neill claimed to have fought there. He was severely wounded and named his son John Verdun O'Neill to commemorate the event. Everything I read suggests that he was wrong. Were there any British forces there?

Doy you have any more details about your grandfather?

Service number, regiment etc?

[Hedley Malloch]

There were at least 3 UK born soldiers of UK descent who fought in the French army at Verdun.  I remember one was a Geordie born in Gateshead and he was commemorated as part of a special exhibition in the Ossurary a few years ago.  I have no idea how he ended up in the French army.

 

There was a thread on this subject in the GWF about three years ago.  Search and ye shall find.

[Derek Black]

Here's the pevious thread from 2 years ago -

....and another from 9 years ago -

 

[Herekawe]

Not exactly in the British Army was James Waddell - a NZer who was in the British Army and then transferred to the French. Was involved in the later part of the battle evidently.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Waddell_(army_officer)

[Guest Forfariain]

Family history reports that my grandfather Thomas Martin soldier number 17245 Cameronians Scottish Riffles died 16th May 1916 during the battle of Verdun. There is a memorial to this in the churchyard at Nairn, Scotland.

I visited his grave, Aveluy near Albert this year on the 100th anniversary of his death. On visiting the cathedral in Albert I found a diary which records troops arriving 18 May 1916 from Verdun!

Would like to find out more about thisif anyone can help, great.

forfariain

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi Forfarian,

Your family history is tantalizing. Is the story that he died while the Battle of Verdun (February to December 1916) was ongoing?, or IN the Battle of Verdun?

You have visited his grave at Aveluy, so you will be aware that this is some 280km away from Verdun.

 

Do you know if the writer of the diary in Albert Cathedral is referring to British or French soldiers, when he writes that ' they arrive of Verdun'?

[bob lembke]

I have studied the Battle of Verdun seriously for 16 years, reading in French and German as well as English (probably only 10% or less in English, as I rarely read secondary sources, and of course the combatants were French and German), and I have never seen any mention of English troops at Verdun, nor anywhere near there. I mostly read about the German side, but have also read many French sources. (My father fought there, and was wounded twice, the second so serious that it kept him out of combat for 1 1/2 years; hence my interest. I have several letters that he wrote from the battle.)

 

I cannot imagine that there were English troops fighting there yet I have never seen mention of them. 

[SiegeGunner]

The excerpt from the diary seen at the cathedral in Albert is intriguing, as it's obviously written in English by a French person.  I wonder where the writer was located when he/she saw the exhausted artillery teams arriving from Verdun.  A few miles to the south of Albert and they could well have been French troops rotated out of the Verdun sector to rest and re-fit. 

 

There obviously were a small number of Brits at Verdun, in the French army and the Foreign Legion, and one would expect there to have been a number of British liaison officers and observers attached to the French army, but I've never seen any evidence of a formed unit being there, even something small and specialised, of a training or advisory nature.  Were any of the British (or at least English-speaking) voluntary ambulance/medical units that served with the French deployed at Verdun? 

[healdav]

In all my years here I have never ever seen or heard anything about British troops fighting at Verdun.

This diary entry may well refer to troops arriving from the direction of Verdun. It seems to be to be very strange that a British soldier should fight and be killed at Verdun and then his body moved to Albert for burial. After all, there are French graves still in German cemeteries, and I know of at least one mass grave with French and German together.

If there were Britishtroops fighting at Verdun it is one of the best kept, if not THE best kept secret of the war.

 

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[CROONAERT]

 

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Could he have possibly joined the French Foreign Legion?

 

Quote

There obviously were a small number of Brits at Verdun, in the ... ... Foreign Legion

 

The Légion Étrangère unit serving on the Western Front (the R.M.L.E.) was one of the few French units on the Western Front in 1916 that actually didn't serve at Verdun in any capacity during the 1916 battle. They were ,however, involved in the "2nd Battle of Verdun" in August 1917.

 

Dave

Edited 1 December , 2016 by CROONAERT

[CROONAERT]

On ‎26‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 09:52, Herekawe said:

Not exactly in the British Army was James Waddell ... ... Was involved in the later part of the battle evidently.

 

He was involved in the 1917 battle, but not in the 1916 battle.

 

(His service record is freely available online, by the way .... http://anom.archivesnationales.culture.gouv.fr/regmatmil/pix2web.php?clef=Waddell-James-1904-1529-Algérie-Oran-1873-10-11-Dunedin-Nouvelle-Zélande  )

 

Dave

[SiegeGunner]

Thanks for the corrective re the Foreign Legion, Dave. 

[bob lembke]

As I have said, I have been studying Verdun for 16 years, reading many sources in French, and many German official histories, which generally figure out what units were fighting on the other side at the engagement being discussed, and I have never seen mention of the French Foreign Legion being involved at Verdun in 1916. But it seems that almost the entire French Army was eventually rotated thru the firestorm of Verdun in 1916. 

[Ron Clifton]

I think that there was at least one medical unit, composed of British men, which served as part of the French Army - "Service Sanitation Anglaise"? But, as others have observed, I am pretty certain that no formed British fighting units were at Verdun in 1916.  I am sure that there would have been some mention of it in Haig's Diaries, had that been the case.

 

Ron

[CROONAERT]

1 hour ago, bob lembke said:

...I have been studying Verdun for 16 years,... ... and I have never seen mention of the French Foreign Legion being involved at Verdun in 1916.

 

Well you won't because ,as I've repeatedly mentioned on this forum over the past years, they didn't serve there in 1916!

 

Frontline sectors served by the R.M.L.E. throughout 1916 are as follows : Aisne (January to February), Oise (February to June), Somme (June to December). Most of the year was spent out of the line completely though. Other than the July Somme events, 1916 was actually a relatively quiet year for the R.M.L.E. (and,after the horrendous casualties incurred by the various L.E. units during the Artois and Champagne battles of 1915 (which actually forced the reorganisation of these units into the R.M.L.E.), I think they deserved it!

 

The first time that the R.M.L.E. set foot on the Verdun battlefield was in the 3rd week of August 1917.

 

Dave

Edited 1 December , 2016 by CROONAERT

[CROONAERT]

On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 09:15, SiegeGunner said:

  A few miles to the south of Albert and they could well have been French troops rotated out of the Verdun sector to rest and re-fit.  

 

Here's an interesting point that I've just noticed.... out of the 20 French infantry regiments making up the first wave of the 1st July Somme attack, 7 had seen previous (and recent) at Verdun.  These 7 belonged to the 39th and 11th Divisions attacking north of the River Somme and up to the junction with the British

 

None of the 13 regiments south of the river had served at Verdun, the last (major) action involving any of these being the 2nd Battle of Champagne in September - November 1915. 

 

It would appear ,therefore, that there is a strong chance that any new (in sector) French troops arriving at Albert in May 1916 (these units all arrived on the Somme from Verdun between April and June) would , indeed, be Verdun veterans (though none of these units' regimental histories even mention Albert!)

 

Dave

[CROONAERT]

3 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

I think that there was at least one medical unit, composed of British men, which served as part of the French Army - "Service Sanitation Anglaise"?

 

 

Section Sanitaire Anglaise  (S.S.A. .... often confused with Section Sanitaire Automobile (also S.S.A.)

 

The Sections Sanitaire Anglaise weren't military units though (they came under the Red Cross) and never served as part of the French Army (and ,therefore, never appear in ORBATs ). The Sections Sanitaire Automobile were part of the French Army though. Manned by French military personnel, they were part of the Service Automobile of the regular French Army and were incorporated into the French divisional structure. I've noticed a few publications that have confused these two types of  'S.S.A.'.

 

Dave. 

Edited 1 December , 2016 by CROONAERT

[phil andrade]

Verdun was the predominant event on the Western Front in the first half of 1916.

 

Might it be that British soldiers felt that they were, in a sense, participating in it, even if they were as far north as the Arras sector ?

 

The BEF took over sectors of the front to relieve pressure on the French because of Verdun.  The German attacks against the British - even at Mount Sorrel in the Ypres Salient- might be attributed to the strategy that Falkenhayn inaugurated at Verdun.

 

We all surely agree that no British army contingents fought at Verdun ; but I can understand how British soldiers, even those up in Artois and Flanders, considered that they were somehow caught up in it.

 

Phil

 

Edited 3 December , 2016 by phil andrade

[phil andrade]

31 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

 

 

 

Double post

Edited 3 December , 2016 by phil andrade

[KGB]

No UK, lots of American. 

[Ron Clifton]

I am pretty absolutely certain that no formed American fighting units were at Verdun in 1916. There may have been the odd unit of the French Army composed mainly, or even wholly, of Americans, but no units of the American Army.

 

Ron

[phil andrade]

The yanks made there presence felt there in the final battles of 1918.

 

Phil

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, KGB said:

No UK, lots of American. 

Not before April 1917.