WALTER SMITH COLE

[bobpike]

I'd be grateful for any help, please with Walter Smith Cole whose MIC lists his regiments as

2477 1/4th SUFFOLK

G/18105 7th R W KENT

G/18105 10th R W KENT

G/18105 7th R W KENT

I would like to know if he was in action on 1st July 1916, but I cannot find any dates to pin him down to which battalion. Also his family believe he won a MM or a DCM, but don't know which or whem. Not much to go on!! Bob

[Matlock1418]

This looks like his MM

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30001/supplement/2991 

[IPT]

Just a little FMP snippet, he appears on a list, dated 19/3/1918, of A Company men posted to Eastern Command Depot, Shoreham-by-Sea. 

[bobpike]

Thank you both, I don't suppose there is any information on why he got the MM is there?

Bob

[HarryBrook]

The award of his M.M. was reported in the Cambridge Independent Press on 3.8.1917. Unfortunately his battalion was not stated, or any details of his action resulting in the award.

 

[charlie962]

Forces War Records have a couple of 1917 records for him. You need to subscribe to get detail

 

[Matlock1418]

On 13/07/2016 at 18:35, Matlock1418 said:

This looks like his MM

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30001/supplement/2991 

Sorry just a fairly bog standard "bulk" set of MM without any details.

[kenf48]

The Rolls show a relatively large number of men around him originally in the Suffolk Yeomanry/Suffolk Regiment (as noted in the press cutting).

 

The surviving service record of Pte 18103 Hurrell shows that he enlisted in 3/1 Suffolk Yeomanry December 1915 in Bury St Edmonds

Posted to France 27/8/1916 and 1/4 Suffolk Regiment. 

Transferred to 7th RWK 7th September 1916, no apparent active service with the 1/4 Suffolk.

 

So he was in the UK on 1st July 1916.

 

The pages of the RWK war diary appear to be missing for September. The 55th Brigade shows training at Monchy Breton.

 

Can't help with the 10th Bn though the FMP 'fragment' suggests he was back in the UK on 19 March 1918 and the 10th Bn was in the process of returning from Italy, perhaps posted to them on their return but went to the 7th again.(?)

 

Had a look at he 7th Bn war diary which lists honours at the end of each month I can't see him listed in the months up to August 1917, so maybe in the 10th then.

 

Ken

[bobpike]

Thank you all very much. I have been sent information that his numbers relate to these dates - 
2477 - October 1914
G/18015 - Mid-September 1916
Can I run my reasoning past you and see if you agree?
On July 1st 1916 according to these dates he was still with 1/4th Suffolks who were not involved in the Battle of the Somme until July 14th until they bivouacked between Fricourt and Mametz? 
So as Ken points out they could not have been involved on July 1st but were in England still?

Bob

 

[kenf48]

I don't know where you received the information from, was it a member of the forum? Why ask here if you are going to get advice elsewhere.

 

The surviving records do not show he was in the Suffolk Regiment in 1914.  In fact the press cutting shows he originally enlisted in the Suffolk Yeomanry.  That number is lost, although it may be that 2477 was his Yeomanry number and he was not renumbered to the 1/4 Suffolk Regiment.

 

i would agree the RWK dates from 'mid-September', or to be more accurate the 7th September 1916 when he was in a draft to the 7th RWK from the Suffolk Regiment/Yeomanry who arrived in France at the end of August, on the 28th.  These numbers in the Rolls are in the range G/18080-G/18152, i.e. a draft of at least 72 men.

 

As his 'war' medal entitlement was the BWM and VM we know he did not go overseas until after the 31 December 1915.  Therefore he did not go to Gallipoli with the 1/1 Yeomanry.  The 2/1 or second line unit remained at home, as did the third line or 3/1 which in 1916 was dismounted and attached to the third line East Anglian Division in the UK.  

 

Following the losses on the Somme this draft went to France, as above and were posted to the 1/4 Suffolk Regiment at 15 IBD at Etaples (some of the men in the draft are still shown on the rolls as Suffolk Yeo. and we know they did not land in France until 1918 when they were part of the 74th(Yeomanry) or 'broken spur' Division.)

an earlier draft on the 2 August also destined for the 1/4 ended up in the 2nd Suffolks.

 

We don't know the size of the draft some may have gone to the Suffolk Regiment but at least 72 were posted to 7th RWK within two weeks of their arrival in France, that is after two weeks training in the niceties of trench warfare and assessment of their fitness at the IBD.

 

Having now had a look for Suffolk Yeomanry numbers 2477 is later than the 11th February 1916  (2466) and earlier, or on the 22 February 1916 (2486, later 18082

RWK Woods, and listed on the Rolls as 2486 1/4 Suffolk).  It looks like this group of recruits enlisted under the Derby or Group Scheme in 1915.  It is also quite clear that 2477 Suffolk Regiment is a clerical error and they were probably never renumbered to the Suffolk Regiment.  

 

So cut a long story short Pte Cole MM  landed in France 27/8/1916 and from the IBD was posted to 7th RWK 7 September 1916 where he would have seen service on the Somme but not on the 1st July but in the fierce battles that followed including the battle of Thiepval Ridge and the capture of the Schwaben Redoubt at the end of September.

 

Ken

 

 

 

[bobpike]

Ken,
Thank you very much for all your information, it is very kind of you and most helpful.

I have no idea if my friend is a Forum member, he is, just that, a friend who has a particular knowledge. I am sure you do not expect sources like this to be ignored just because they are not members of the Forum,

Bob

[kenf48]

You're welcome, reading the cutting again he was wounded at Thiepval, and according to the account went back in January 1917, was he posted to the 10th then?  

He is back in the UK at the Command Depot in March 1918.  Lloyd George and the War Cabinet were holding men back in the UK at this time, did he then rejoin the fray with the 7th Bn?

 

There is an entry in the 10th Bn war diary for the period commencing 2nd July 1917 when they were at rest at Fletre that shows,

"Lt Roberts awarded MC CSM Cooper D.C.M 15 ORs M.M.'  CSM Cooper's (first) DCM was Gazeeted 25/8/1917.  It appears these awards were for actions around Pheasant Wood/DammStrasse on the 7th June and following days.

 

I guess a count of the LG supplement above would confirm whether or not there are 15 MM to the RWK in the list.

 

Ken

[bobpike]

Ken,

Thank you for all the trouble you've taken, it's been very useful and most interesting,

Bob