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Remembered Today:

Lancashire Fusiliers 11th battalion movements


EvanEvansLancs

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Hello, my grandfather Evan Evans, regiment number 7658, fought in the First World War including the Somme and served in the 11th battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers from 1914 and probably then the 1st battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers.He was injured 3 times and the third time left for dead after a shoulder injury probably at Cambrai or Ypres in 1918, and saved by a Canadian doctor. I have managed to trace his medal card though according to Ancestry his Service records have been lost. One of the first things I want to do is find the movements of the 11th battalion when they landed in France and any record of his time with the 11th or the 1st. Any help appreciated. Thanks

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Welcome to the forum

 

As you have access to Ancestry, you'll be able to look up the battalion's war diary to see the movements, etc.

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Thanks for the reply. I didn't realise it was possible to access war diaries via Ancestry. Unfortunately I am no longer a full member though I may now reactivate my membership. How does it work - will I need to specify a specific day or period ? 

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If you don't want to renew Ancestry you can download the diary from TNA for little more than the price of a Sunday newspaper, easier to read and file as you have the complete document which is yours to keep.  On Ancestry it's a page at a time so can get a bit tedious if you want more than one day

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353374

 

The 11th Bn did not go to France until September 1915 they were in 74th Brigade 25th Division

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/25th-division/

 

He entered theatre with the 11th Battalion on the 25th September 1915.  He enlisted on the 19th September 1914.

 

He was discharged on 2 April 1918 and awarded a Silver War Badge, unfortunately the Roll does not give cause of discharge wounds or sickness but we can guess it was the former.

 

Ken 

 

 

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Many thanks Ken. I'll try the National Archives. 

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The award rolls show that he served with 11th, 3rd and 1st LF, retaining the same service number throughout.

According to "The Scotsman" (30 May 1916), He was treated at Edinburgh War Hospital -

CARE OE THE WOUNDED. ARRIVAL OF WOUNDED AT BANGOUR. An ambulance train containing 80 wounded and sick soldiers arrived at EdinburghWarHospital, Bangour, yesterday morning. The party included 10 men belonging to Scottish regiments, 8 Canadian, 3 Australians, and 1 to the Now Zealand Force the remainder being men from English, Welsh, and Irish regiments.

Evans , 7658 E.T., L. Fus

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Glen - thanks for this. The 3rd battalion is a surprise. Is there any way I can find out when he was with each of these battalions as we can't find the service record ? Also the Edinburgh hospital information ties in with what we had heard but until now had no record of when. How do you know he was one of those treated at that time? I've tried searching with no success. Cheers, Jeff

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Glen - I can see the details at the bottom of your post now. Sorry - I missed that earlier. 

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Unfortunately, there are no dates on the medal rolls, just a reference to which companies he served with. 

The article in "The Scotsman" listed all the names that arrived for treatment that day. Your man was on the list, and I didn't think you'd want the other 79, so I didn't type them up

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Glen - that's fine - cheers. Some more questions if that's OK - (i) Would there be a hospital record ? (ii) Arrival on 30 May 1916 at Edinburgh would probably have meant injured some time during May in France presumably. I've looked through the 11th war diary for May and found no entry for 7658 yet - I'll keep looking. Are casualties listed anywhere else? (iii) He had 3 bad injuries altogether with one of them being later in the war when he only just survived. The hospital entry on 30 May 1916 was therefore either his first or second. Is it likely that he went back to the 11th or would that be the likely time when he went to the 1st?  

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i) there are some military hospital records on "Forces War Records" but he is not listed
ii) I would agree roughly with your dates, Causality lists were issued but do not give a date that the injury/death occurred.
iii) I would think either is a possibility, if 1 battalion needed reinforcements more that the other, or was in a more accessible location he could have been sent to either.

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Thanks. I am unable to find the war diary of the 1st battalion at the national archives. Does that mean it hasn't been digitised yet ? 

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Hi Jeff.

 

The diary for the 1st Bn Lancashire Fusiliers for their time in France/Flanders can be downloaded from the National Archives here

 

Regards

Chris

 

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Thanks Chris - I've downloaded it and am working my way through it - it may take some time as it's very faint. I have also stumbled across a web site showing my grandfather's regiment number - 7658 - belonging to someone else in 1914 who was a prisoner of war. Here's the link.  http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/bedfordshire-regiment-pow-other-ranks.html 

 

Was it normal practice to be given someone else's number in these circumstances? 

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Thanks for all the help so far. Please ignore my last message regarding soldiers with the same regiment number.
I am still trying to put all the pieces together; I have worked through the 2 war diaries with no success though have found 2 list entries in the Medal Rolls. The one for the 11th battalion says 25-9-15, discharged 29-4-18. (The medal card says he was discharged due to injuries.) The other list says 11th Lancs Fusrs, 3rd Lancs Fusrs, 1st Lancs Fusrs. Does this mean he was with these battalions in that sequence - 11th then the 3rd then the 1st ?
 
If so then it looks like he was with the 11th up to 30 May 1916 when he arrived at Edinburgh hospital, then with the 3rd, then with the 1st until April 1918. We know he was at the Somme, and at Cambrai, and we are almost 100% sure he had his last critical injury at Cambrai – but it doesnt tie in with the dates. The Cambrai battle was in Nov/Dec 1917, so if that was when he had his last injury why would the discharge through injuries have been as late as April 1918 ? Is that what usually happened or would it normally be when he was injured ? 
 
Unfortunately I have not found anything regarding his woundings mentioned in the war diaries whilst with the 11th or the 1st battalions. Focusing on his 1916 wounding firstly, on the assumption that he was wounded whilst with the 11th sometime around March or April or May 1916, I was surprised there is no mention of him, because there are numerous other casualties listed including privates. Why would this be? The Diary shows there was some “borrowing” of soldiers from other battalions, so I am wondering if he was borrowed by another battalion at that time so may be in another battalions war diary? Or is it just one of those things that not everyone is mentioned ? Thanks again. 
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Hi,

 

22 hours ago, EvanEvansLancs said:

Does this mean he was with these battalions in that sequence - 11th then the 3rd then the 1st ?

 

Yes it does. However, bear in mind that the 3rd Battalion never ventured outside of the UK (See the LLT) and that the medal rolls should only reflect units served with in active theatre. What I suspect might be the case is that he received a wounding with the 1st Battalion, that treatment and recovery took some time, and consequently he  was taken off the battalion establishment list (allowing his place to be filled by another man) and "notionally" posted to the 3rd Battalion. Once he had recuperated he was sent back to theatre, and arrived at the base depot still badged as a 3rd Battalion man, but was posted from there to the 1st Battalion.

 

On ‎14‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 16:05, EvanEvansLancs said:

...He had 3 bad injuries altogether...

 

If you are certain of that, I would guess that one of them was treated fairly quickly in France/Belgium, and he was returned to the same unit. Otherwise, I would have thought the medal roll would have reflected a second occasion where he was removed from the battalion establishment list. If that were to be the case, the difficulty would seem to be in establishing whether it was before the wounding in 1916 that resulted in his hospitalisation in Edinburgh (i.e. when he was a 11th Battalion man), or having returned to theatre if it was before the wounding that resulted in his eventual discharge (i.e. he was a 1st Battalion man).

 

22 hours ago, EvanEvansLancs said:

The Cambrai battle was in Nov/Dec 1917, so if that was when he had his last injury why would the discharge through injuries have been as late as April 1918 ?

 

There was a process involved in a man being discharged following an injury. In broad terms he received treatment, and recuperated, then his case was put before a medical board to make an assessment of whether he should be returned to full or limited duties, or whether he should be discharged as unfit. Depending on factors such as the severity of the wound and the time taken to recover it could be several months before the assessment was made, and the man discharged.

 

Regards

Chris

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  • 2 years later...

Hello again. I have started looking into this again and have come across a photo of Evan taken at Llandaff hospital Cardiff. There is no date but I assume it was probably in 1918 though I cannot be certain. Also I have a WW1 book with comments he wrote on one of the pages against a photograph of a stretcher trolley at Vimy Ridge. He has written "I have been in this trolley wounded", and he signed the page. I have checked the WW1 movements and I think this means he was probably wounded at Vimy Ridge around May 2016 and was probably with the 11th battalion at the time, but I still cannot find a record of this. Do you think my explanation appears correct ? Thanks

Edited by EvanEvansLancs
grammar incorrect and could be misinterpreted
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  • 7 months later...

Hello again - I have just noticed that Kenf48 posted on 11 July 2016 above, that "He was discharged on 2 April 1918". However it says 29 April 1918 on the medal card so I don't know why you've said 2 April 1916 - or is that just a typo ? Many thanks 

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4 hours ago, EvanEvansLancs said:

Hello again - I have just noticed that Kenf48 posted on 11 July 2016 above, that "He was discharged on 2 April 1918". However it says 29 April 1918 on the medal card so I don't know why you've said 2 April 1916 - or is that just a typo ? Many thanks 

 

 It is the 29th April I may have been looking on my iPad. It came from the SWB Records

 

Apologies butI will tell that clerk to change their typewriter ribbon;)

 

 

 

Screenshot 2019-11-13 at 19.51.07.png

 

Magnified

Screenshot 2019-11-13 at 19.51.51.png

 

 

Ken

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Hello - I'm revisiting this again and am trying to establish when my grandfather had his first wound, when with the 11th battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers before going to Edinburgh hospital. My line of enquiry is now to try and find out who else from the 11th battalion was with him when he arrived at Edinburgh Bangour hospital on 29 May 1916. I was hoping to go through the list of names in The Scotsman paper (30 May 1916) as this may help. I have definitely seen the list before but cannot find it now. If anyone can provide me with the names on the list shown in The Scotsman on 30 May 1916 I would be very grateful. Many thanks.    

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The only other Lancashire Fusilier on the Scotsman  list was:-

 

Carr 9990 J. (James).  He has a medical record on FMP admitted 18 General Hospital (Camiers) on the 15.5.1916. Shown as ‘3att1’, one of four 1st Lancashire Fusiliers on that page admitted that day.  Evans was not one of them.  The second document on FMP is the admissions index for 18 General Hospital.  

 

There are no 11th Battalion men on the 18 General Hospital page.

 

The list is on FMP here if you subscribe.

 

Ken

 

 

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The 11th Lancashire Fusiliers  relieved my Grandfathers 9th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, quite often in the trenches. JRR Tolkien was in the 11th LF's.

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There is one more Lancashire Fusilier on the Scotsman list;-  Lance Corporal H. Rushton, 9992.  https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000540%2f19160530%2f184&stringtohighlight=evans bangour

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

Edit, this is Harry Rushton, Lancashire Fusiliers and Labour Corps. Awarded Silver War Badge. Address on medal index card is in Australia!

Edited by alf mcm
Additional info.
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Thanks Ken/Tom/Alf -  I posted this to Ken earlier today but thought I'd share with you all; We're sure his first injury was at Vimy Ridge in 1916 (shoulder we think) and there were a number of casualties from end of April to around 25 May listed in the War Diary which ties in with his arrival at Edinburgh on 29 May. Although there is no mention of Evan 7658 it does however state an E. Evans wounded in action on 17.05.1916 at Vimy Ridge but alongside it there is a different number (9680). Bit of a coincidence perhaps - could that be an error ?  

 

After reading the reply from Tom above, I just wonder if he was part of the relief of another regiment when the injury happened, eg. 9th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment ?

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