Lee Enfield Identification

[smitten]

Dear All,

 

I'm thinking of purchasing a 1917 No 1 Mk 3* de-cativated rifle that looks good but just have a couple of possible issues that hopefully someone can help me with please?

 

• The butt stock appears to have a round wood insert instead of the more common brass disk so is this correct?
• The right side of the barrel has a small white mark just ahead of the rear hand-guard which alomost looks a little like a plume but could just be paint.

 

I've attached pics, albeit rather low res, to try and show what I mean

 

Kind Regards

Colin

 

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Colin,

 

Yes, you are correct, the round wooden plug is filling in where the brass butt disc would have been.

The white mark is some sort of crest ( see attached enlargement ), and may be an Indian Government mark ?

 

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Colin,

 

May possibly be the Indian Government's insignia ( see attached )

 

Regards,

LF

[smitten]

Many thanks for this confirmation.

 

I have just one other question and again I only have a low res photo of the section in question of the rifle but on the bottom left side of the action body there seems to be a number which could be 4.10 possibly? If so then does this mean it was converted at some point whilst in India?

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

[smitten]

Sorry,

 

The image is clearer on the web site at the following link as it can then be enlarged whilst retaining resolution.

 

http://www.rjmilitaria.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=1320

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Colin,

 

There was a SMLE .410 Musket approved in India in 1927 and those will have an  Indian ' RFI ' marking on the Sutt Socket.

The .410 Musket was typically used for riot control in India, and there are also examples of the SMLE .303 Rifle converted for .410 shotgun civilian use in the U.K.

What markings are on the rifles Butt Socket ( the metal strap going around the rifle from the end of the bolt to the back of the trigger guard ) ?

 

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

2 minutes ago, smitten said:

http://www.rjmilitaria.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=1320

 

Colin,

 That link does not contain an image ?

[smitten]

The link is flaky so you need to click on Deactivated Guns and then the link for this SMLE to view the pictures.

 

http://www.rjmilitaria.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4

 

Apologies

Colin

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Colin,

 

Based on those photographs, your rifle started out as a WW1 Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield .303 Rifle Mk. III* made by the Birmingham Small Arms Co. in 1917, and at some point in time, it was converted to a .410 Shotgun / Musket, probably in India, if indeed that mark is an Indian Government insignia.

Otherwise, it was converted to a .410 shotgun for civilian use in the U.K.

 

Regards,

LF

[T8HANTS]

About 40 years ago as a way of getting around the Fire Arms act a lot of ex service rifles were converted to 'shotguns', some would chamber a proper shotgun cartridge others were just smooth bored. I had a .22" SMLE trainer that made an excellent rat gun with .22 dust shot.  Martini Henry's came out as 14 bore IIRC, a company called Magnum Arms used to advertise such items quite extensively.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

2 minutes ago, T8HANTS said:

About 40 years ago as a way of getting around the Fire Arms act a lot of ex service rifles were converted to 'shotguns', some would chamber a proper shotgun cartridge others were just smooth bored. I had a .22" SMLE trainer that made an excellent rat gun with .22 dust shot.  Martini Henry's came out as 14 bore IIRC, a company called Magnum Arms used to advertise such items quite extensively.

 

When I lived in a small village in Cheshire about 30 years ago, we had a 2.5 acre garden, and I had several British and German rifles converted to .410 which I used for small game.

 

Regards,

LF

[smitten]

Dear All,

 

Thank you so much for your interest and considerable expertise.

 

I'm after a stock .303 SMLE in nice condition that has been de-activated but not converted in any way, and given that there were literally millions of them made during WW1 there should be one out there somewhere even if it takes a little while to find one (any suggestions on reliable sources would be much appreciated).

 

It's a pity this example has been converted to a shot gun at some point, possibly in India, but this ties in with the information in the excellent book by Charles Stratton that I bought very recently and also explains the possible/probable India ownership mark.

 

You are all in my considerable debt as you have prevented me from spending my hard earned cash on something that is not what it appears to be at first glance and absolutely not what I'm after. My search continues!

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Colin,

 

You should certainly be able to find a nice condition WW1 SMLE with it being exactly the type you are looking for, there are plenty out there. Also, with the pending changes in the deactivated firearms regulations, you should be able to pick up a bargain.

 

Regards,

LF

[smitten]

I know it is not the role of the forum to comment on dealers or to overtly recommend them but as I'm very new to this and Google doesn't always provide the best results can anyone give me some clues as to where I might continue my search please?

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. what are the new deactivation rules and why will they mean more are now available at possibly lower prices?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

43 minutes ago, smitten said:

 what are the new deactivation rules and why will they mean more are now available at possibly lower prices?

 

Colin,

 

Take a look at the current Forum Thread entitled ' New Deactivation of Weapons Regulations ', it will give you a lot of information.

 

Regards,

LF

[MikeyH]

World Wide Arms have de-act. WW1 dated SMLE's on offer, with or without magazine cut off.  Check the website.

 

Mike.

[smitten]

Dear All,

 

Finding a nice original example is proving to be more difficult than I imagined given how many were made as many dealers don't seem to be happy for me to visit them to view their rifles and instead prefer to sell 'blind'.

 

However I've come across a 'live' example that looks really nice and which the dealer, who seems very genuine, is willing to deactivate but it is apparently a 'commercial' example dating from around 1916. It does have matching numbers to Bolt receiver and rear sight which is a plus.
 

 

I've attached a pic of the BSA company name as it appears on the rifle so just wondered if anyone could possibly give me some more insight regarding its likley history please?

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

[4thGordons]

Beyond what you have already said I can't offer much more on the basis of this pic.

The absence of the crown/cypher/mark/date on the wrist indicates (as you say) that it is a commercially produced example rather than a military contract rifle.

I would have thought it relatively unlikely that it was produced during the war (how did you arrive at the 1916 date?) and more likely that it was produced in the inter-war period.

 

Is it in MkIII* or MkIII format?

What is the serial number prefix (letter) I might guess:  L ?

 

Commercial rifles are a theme for some collectors.

Any more pics?

 

Chris

Edited 19 July , 2016 by 4thGordons
typo

[smitten]

Chris,

 

Many thanks for the reply.

 

The vendor believes it to be around 1916 given the parts it is made from but hasn't confirmed a serial number.

 

The following link shows it in more detail: http://www.gunstar.co.uk/enfield-smle-mk3-303-rifles/rifles/837171

 

Having now given it some more thought it seems unlikley that BSA would have had the capacity or desire to make 'commercial' versions during WW1 as they would have been pretty busy fulfilling orders for the military, so it is more likley that it dates from the 1920's, not not the WW1 example I'm after.

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

[MikeyH]

Colin,

 

You should go to the next Birmingham International Arms Fair on the 17th September, not far from you at the Motorcycle Museum.  There will be de-activated rifles for sale with WW1 dates for your inspection.  I agree, always best to see before you buy.

 

 

Mike.

[4thGordons]

I think the rifle shown would make a good shooter (the windage adjustable rear sight for example) but if you want a wartime rifle as a deactivated example it does not seem the best choice as I see no indication of military issue. With the exception of the wrist stamping it is identical to military issued rifles but if part of the point is to have an example that has "been there" then this would not be it.

 

With the rifle in hand I would take off the upper handguard and look for a barrel date (usually found low down on the left side) but I think it very likely that it was produced in the interwar period for exactly the reasons you suggest.

 

I wouldn't expect to find a perfectly original deact example easily but with some searching you will be able to find a decent wartime dated example.

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Colin,

 

As Mike has said, the Birmingham International Arms Fair would be a good place to view a rifle, you may also like to take a look at the website of J.C. Militaria in Manchester, they have several WW1 SMLEs for sale, and that will give you some comparisons to consider.

 

Regards,

LF

[593jones]

On 09/07/2016 at 17:45, T8HANTS said:

About 40 years ago as a way of getting around the Fire Arms act a lot of ex service rifles were converted to 'shotguns', some would chamber a proper shotgun cartridge others were just smooth bored. I had a .22" SMLE trainer that made an excellent rat gun with .22 dust shot.  Martini Henry's came out as 14 bore IIRC, a company called Magnum Arms used to advertise such items quite extensively.

 

I remember Magnum Arms Company very well, I bought my first SMLE from them, a Mk III*, BSA, 1917, which cost me £8 10s. in 1969.  I also had several smoothbore conversions from them, a Mauser Kar 98 and a Springfield Model 1903A3 amongst them.  These were just straight smoothbores, but I also had a No. 4 Mk 1* converted to .410, 2 1/2" chamber which was fun to shoot.  Ah, the happy days of my youth. 

 

On 10/07/2016 at 16:15, smitten said:

 

 

Ps. what are the new deactivation rules and why will they mean more are now available at possibly lower prices?

 

I very much doubt if any traders will be lowering their prices as, in theory anyway, they will have to carry out more work to suit the new regulations re rifles with detachable magazines,  From what I have read, traders appear to be welding a rod across the magazine well, but slotting the magazine so that it can still be detached. 

 

As has been suggested, an arms fair is your best bet, there will certainly be several traders offering de-acts, so you can browse and select the best on offer.

 

Good luck!