TEW Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 I've had a look through various diaries and either the IWM caption is giving the wrong date or location or both. Just to re-cap it's dated 19th July 1916 and ; Battle of Bazentin Ridge. ....., on the way to a dressing station near Bernafay Wood. Battle of Bazentin Ridge is dated 14th-17th July 1917. On 14th July 11/Lancs Fusiliers reported to 7th Infantry Brigade at USNA redoubt as support to their attack on Orvillers la Boisselle and La Boisselle (part of Battle of Bazentin Ridge). Two attacks took place on 15th July, 3.30am and 11.20pm - both failed. 11/Lancs Fusiliers OR casualties = 15 Killed, 54 Wounded, 20 Missing. Distance from Orvillers la Boisselle to Bernafay Wood is about 5 miles as the crow flies. Can't see how he would be off that far to the east when his Division's ADS was in Albert (North Chimney) with 2 posts even closer (Ovillers & Bapaume Post) Ovillers post was about 2000 yards back from the objective. On the night of the 16/17th July they all moved back into billets in Bouzincourt and then on to Beaval and remained in Billets and training until 24th July. Despite what the CWGC say: The cemetery (BERNAFAY WOOD) was begun by a dressing station in August 1916 and BERNAFAY WOOD NORTH CEMETERY......was begun by an Advanced Dressing Station, and used from July to October 1916. I haven't as yet found a ref to a dressing station being set up around Bernafay Wood during July 1916. Perhaps there's something in a field ambulance diary. 18th Division ADMS diary says of Bernafay Wood 13th-16th July 1916 'The task of clearing Bernafay and Trones Wood was difficult and dangerous as the enemy's artillery fire was heavy'. Doesn't sound conducive to having a dressing station located there. 18th Division's ADS 13th-22nd July remained in High Street Maricourt, not up to Bernafay by then. As far as a location for a 11/Lancs Fusiliers wounded man in this time frame USNA valley or Aveluy would be a better bet. Unless he laid out in nomansland for 4 days the 15th July would be a better date. Bearing in mind he shows on a Casualty List for 25th Aug it's a bit tight for the photo to be much later than the 19th. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 22 hours ago, KevinBattle said: If you Google "wounded soldiers near Bernafay Wood 1916" and then look at the images, a colour photo of just the German and the 2 men (Pizzey? and Pioneer) to the PoW's right are alone, nothing else in sight, clearly showing the light railway track lines. It must have been taken prior to the other men and cavalry passing by, there is nothing else in shot to the far distance. The photo has the capital letters DOUG in the bottom right. The stance of the three is virtually identical, except the Pioneer has his right foot behind, not in front. There's also yet another of the 3 centre stage with a group of British troops coming up behind, 3 with officer type caps but looking rather dishevelled...more walking wounded perhaps. Teddy not visible in that, but same 3 men in virtually the same posture. I think you might be reading too much into the other pictures with variations Kevin - at least one you mention is a well known and heavily edited version that has been used on a book cover before. I don't believe there is anything other than the one original that has already been posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 On 09/07/2016 at 08:23, Harvey H said: Hi everyone, This photo is quite famous I believe ? My mum knows the woman with the original photograph, as her relative is the one on the far right, really badly wounded, she says everyone in that photo was patched up and sent back to the trenches, all of them were later killed, so the photographer sent a female relative the photo. She would like to know, if possible, exactly, or nearly, where it was taken. One question of my own, I guess that it's a German pow in the middle? As can be seen in the photos side by side This one is a heavily manipulated version of the original as pointed out by Andrew above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 Look like different compositions to me. Bandaged knee in different position. POW's stick in different position. I also think they are higher up the track in the colour one. The third one Kevin mentioned was hard to find but is another variation of this composition. All part and parcel of Brooks' rearranging groups to get what he wanted. I'm still doubting that they'd be heading FROM the battlefield TO Bernafay Wood or had come from Bernafay. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9.5mm Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 2 hours ago, RaySearching said: As can be seen in the photos side by side This one is a heavily manipulated version of the original as pointed out by Andrew above They are different photographs. It is correct that the bottom image has been cropped, colourised and digitally manipulated (soldiers have been airbrushed out), but the B&W original was taken by John Warwick Brooke. The top image was taken by Ernest Brooks. The photographers were working in tandem to cover the casualties walking along the same road. In my experience, Brooke tends to record more accurately locations and dates (Brooks is less reliable in this regard). Brooke states the bottom image (remember it's not the original) was shot on the 17th July and given what we know about the battle, this date seems more probable for both photographs: Battle of Bazentin Ridge. Two British and a German wounded help each other on the way to the dressing station (63rd Field Ambulance) on the Mametz Wood-Mametz road. The original Brooke photograph - IWM ref: Q 3974. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205193997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 Thanks for clearing that up 9.5mm I thought that their were as many similarities as well as differences in the photos which led me to suspect that the original (Harveys posted photo) may have been a heavily photo-shopped and cropped The result the second photo apparantly not Regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 Hi, Whether it was specifically done for it, I don't know, but the colourised photo was used as the cover for "Forgotten Voices of the Great War" (2002) by Max Arthur. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 Well, that's rather confusing! Two photographers, one Brooke, the other Brooks, taking virtually identical photographs yet with different captions.... The colourised 3 man version does look a bit altered, but what point is served by just 2 Brits and a German PoW? It's less powerful and emotive without the full body of wounded men straggling back, or the third image which has soldiers with cloth caps, not helmets... After all, where on the Western Front would you find such an empty landscape? The track in the distance also appears to split in two as it curves, which is obscured in the other 2 similar photos, why would you airbrush in a split/curve "unnecessarily. Whilst it's a digression, it seems to me to be a set of at least 3 different photos at almost the same time. 17th July does fit with the action on the day before, Sunday 16th July... Quote Sunday 16th July 1916. Day 16: Ovillers: Fighting was renewed in Ovillers at 1am. 74 Bde of the 25th Div attacked from the east, while 1/5th Warwickshire Regt (which was attached to the division) attacked from the north east. At the same time 144 Bde of 48th Div attacked from the south. By evening Ovillers was reported to have been captured. 145 Bde of 48th Div relieved 25th Div and consolidated the position at night. (The Somme Day by Day So wounded soldiers from 74 Brigade would be straggling back on 17th July after being relieved at Ovillers, and been photographed along the track back to 63rd Field Ambulance by both Brooke and Brooks..... No mention of Berkshires for Private Pizzey to be the centre of the photo, though...... My brain hurts, I'll leave it to the experts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 And the IWM Q3974 is the 3rd one mentioned by Kevin. Certainly Ernest Brooks' caption was making no sense. Will check a few other things tomorrow and see if a 25th Division man should be heading to a 21st Div. field ambulance. Offhand I still think it's too far away and although date is better there's still a day's discrepency. His battalion would have been out of the line and in billets on the 17th. He could be one of the missing and spent the night lost and then found on 17th. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 Thanks Chris Been wracking my brain to remember where I had seen that photo before - Max Arthur of course. Cheers for that John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 Kevin Their dairy and the 74th Brigade says that the 11/LF were in support to the 7th Brigade attack on Ovillers. Much the same location so not a significant difference for 11/LF. But they are the other side of the Albert-Bapaume road some 4000 yards as crow flies from Mametz-Mametz wood road. Dallimore had his own division's medical posts/dressing stations much closer. If the Brooke caption is correct then Dallimore has wondered some distance more or less along the front line across divisional boundaries. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey H Posted 11 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2016 This photo thing bad my confused too, I'll read it back a few times and get familiar with what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 It might mean nothing but the man on the far left - is that a medical tag on his chest ? At what stage would have been applied ?. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 37 minutes ago, clk said: Hi, Whether it was specifically done for it, I don't know, but the colourised photo was used as the cover for "Forgotten Voices of the Great War" (2002) by Max Arthur. Regards Chris From a photography/art point of view, a group of 3 (anything- people, trees, pebbles on a beach) is more aesthetically pleasing to the eye than 2 or 4. It might have been decided by the art people at the publishers that they needed 3 men on the cover, and the others were airbrushed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 It does seem to be a slightly later photo - if you compare the height of the men to the 2 (chalk ?) lines in the back right.- but I can't see that all the other men would have managed to clear out of shot that quickly. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 49 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: It does seem to be a slightly later photo - if you compare the height of the men to the 2 (chalk ?) lines in the back right.- but I can't see that all the other men would have managed to clear out of shot that quickly. Craig I was looking at those too, but wondered if the differences could be a telescoping effect due to different cameras with different focal lengths, giving the impression of the shots being taken from different locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 11 July , 2016 Share Posted 11 July , 2016 Craig, I'm sure the tag would have been applied at RAP or WWCS depending which he got to first. There's another man far right with one as well. I've been wondering why the others don't seem to have one. Perhaps they do and they're hidden. Can't decide if Pizzey (man in centre) is helping the other two or being helped by the POW. No obvious sign of injur for Pizzey perhaps he's a bearer. Just to check, is the colourised one with 3 men a modern creation photoshopped from Q3974 for Max Arthur or is there an original B/W one with just the 3, IE darkroom techniques of the time? The 3 man version is less cluttered. I've seen a colourised one of the image in the OP with the POW in khaki!! TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 What an excellent thread - great leads Harvey, well done. Wasn't the 11/LF JRR Tolkien's unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 References in the Oldham Chronicle if anyone has access: Dillamore Edmund Private, Lancashire Fusiliers, Aged 23, Address: 263 Henshaw Street, Oldham Dillamore Edmund Private, Lancashire Fusiliers, Aged 23, Address: 263 Henshaw Street, Oldham 4 Aug 1917 p9 col 1 4 Aug 1917 p10 col 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 Not trying to over complicate the photograph side of things but I think I see man number 4 (from Dai's post 38) also showing in the Q3974 image. Not 100% certain but I'm seeing man No.4 immediately behind the POW's right fist. And possibly the bayonet of man No. 2 is showing vertically by the POW's left ear. If so, and men 2 & 4 are further back in 3974 this would mean that Brooke and Brooks were stood more or less together and there can't be much of a time difference between them. The two men have caught up in the post38 image. Either Dallimore was obscured in 3974 or perhaps Brooks arranged him into the shot. Post38 http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/241060-info-on-this-famous-photo/&do=findComment&comment=2421679 Q3974 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205193997 TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 Yes. I agree the two men are in both photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 Well known, yes, and it is a moving image. Referring to Dai Bach's very useful numbered photo, No 1 seems to be wounded in both arms. His left forearm is badly deformed, radius and ulna obviously fractured and the bloodstains indicate a compound, or open, fracture (which indicates a bullet wound or other penetrating missile). This makes me wince, even 50-odd years after suffering the same injury. The flesh and muscle on my forearm was debrided - surgically cut away - to prevent infection and to this day I have a large scar and a large hole in the muscle which shows particularly when I clench my fist, and I imagine No 1 would have the same. A full triangular bandage would have given his left forearm much better support. No 2 looks like he is taking a quick sidestep to either avoid the camera lens or to step into the picture. The German (No 3) is the only one with a fag ! 4 seems to be grinning. Can't see any wounds on 5, although his linked arm suggests he needs support. 6 is clearly lightly wounded above the knee. Unlike the rest (as far as I can see) he is wearing the simplified SD jacket, and interestingly seems to have a collar badge. Is it my bad eyesight, but I am sure he has a collar badge. Poor No 7. Looking at the way his jacket has been torn away to gain access to the site of injury, the dressing pad on his upper chest/shoulder and the type of support bandaging he has to the right arm, I surmise fractured clavicle (collar bone), so probably bullet/missile wound to right shoulder which may well have caused the bloodstaining to his face which earlier contributors have suggested. Walking wounded perhaps, but there is a lot of pain there, and one wonders how pleased - or otherwise - the men were to be confronted by a photographer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 After a rather arduous search for the 63rd Field Ambulance 'Dressing Station' as per the John Warwick Brooke caption to Q3974, to cut a long story short it was at 57dSE X.29.b.5.3. (bottom right corner). Which is on the road between Mametz and Mametz Road, at least Brooke knew where he was so will accept his date as well. The ADS was handed over from 63FA to 101FA by 7pm on the 17th July. Grid Ref comes from 33 Div. ADMS diary. They also mention another ADS at 'SUBWAY, BECORDEL'. The above ADS in X.29 may also be the one the 33 ADMS calls 'Quarry ADS' which was shown to 19 Div. ADMS on the 19th July. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 Not sure if quoting from other topics is common practise but it seems relevant. Sorry Mike if not! TEW On 23 August 2014 at 10:31, MikeyH said: A piece in today's 'Times' reveals that the two British soldiers shown on the front cover of 'Forgotten Voices of the Great War', have it seems been indentified by descendants. The man in the centre is said to be Private John Thomas Pizzey, who served with the Royal Berkshire Regiment. The soldier on the right is thought to be Joe Hopkins. By chance, both the men's descendants are producers for BBC Radio 4. Max Arthur's 2002 book has sold almost 500,000 copies, does this make it the best selling Great War book of recent years? Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 2 minutes ago, TEW said: After a rather arduous search for the 63rd Field Ambulance 'Dressing Station' as per the John Warwick Brooke caption to Q3974, to cut a long story short it was at 57dSE X.29.b.5.3. (bottom right corner). Which is on the road between Mametz and Mametz Road, at least Brooke knew where he was so will accept his date as well. The ADS was handed over from 63FA to 101FA by 7pm on the 17th July. Grid Ref comes from 33 Div. ADMS diary. They also mention another ADS at 'SUBWAY, BECORDEL'. The above ADS in X.29 may also be the one the 33 ADMS calls 'Quarry ADS' which was shown to 19 Div. ADMS on the 19th July. TEW I wonder then if that's the railway line and the junction nearby with the men heading north ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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