Rank vs Appointment

[Matlock1418]

On 03/07/2016 at 20:33, ss002d6252 said:

Because it was in WW1, it was not a rank. It could be granted and taken away by the CO on a whim - rank couldn't be (it's now a rank rather than an appointment).

Craig

 

On 03/07/2016 at 20:36, ss002d6252 said:

Rank and appointment can be a funny thing.

 

L/Corporal is a still a private but given an appointment which gives him authority of a private.

A CSM or QMS whilst still a Serjeant would be given authority over a plain and simple Serjeant.

Craig

Craig = Think a small typo - in second line of your second post - I think end of your last "Private" should read "... authority of a Corporal" - have I got this right?  - Definitely think I have the gist.

So enlightened on Lance-Corporals as Appointments (which seem to be half-way posts between substantive Ranks - With or without pay???  [and by association Lance-Serjeants I guess - though you/someone may soon put me right on this]
??? ditto for acting- ranks which apparently could be several ranks different - think all ranks potentially as acting-, or am I thinking of temporary? (I am deliberately not capitalising - think I'll raise a separate reply.).  

 

Now I know why so many of my various ancestors kept getting "promoted" and then "busted" back to Private so often - thanks to the CO !!! 

[and I note when transferred from a training battalion to active service - though latter seems very logical as moving into a bigger pond!]

 

One of my ancestors soared in his SR from Private to acting Serjeant/Serjeant, with such above types of setbacks along the way,

(later ranks/roles variously recorded as "acting Ord. Room Serjeant" and "ORS" at battalion level - guess this ORS is an appointment not a rank.  Finally in a dispersal Records Office again recorded as OR Serjeant - not certain if he ever was substantiated in final rank as a Serjeant, as his MIC still says Private

Beyond SR how can I find out / how should his final "rank" and/or appointment be recorded?  Haven't seen an pay records (are they ever available?) so don't know how he was being paid - would knowing this make any difference?  Were acting- ranks optionally unpaid and paid? - think I have seen both in SR - who would make the decision? - I'm guessing the CO??? - It's quite possibly in KR but it is a big read, so if you know the quick answer ... appreciated for self and others (?).)

[bill24chev]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

Craig = Think a small typo - in second line of your second post - I think end of your last "Private" should read "... authority of a Corporal" - have I got this right?  - Definitely think I have the gist.

So enlightened on Lance-Corporals as Appointments (which seem to be half-way posts between substantive Ranks - With or without pay???  [and by association Lance-Serjeants I guess - though you/someone may soon put me right on this]
??? ditto for acting- ranks which apparently could be several ranks different - think all ranks potentially as acting-, or am I thinking of temporary? (I am deliberately not capitalising - think I'll raise a separate reply.).  

 

Now I know why so many of my various ancestors kept getting "promoted" and then "busted" back to Private so often - thanks to the CO !!! 

[and I note when transferred from a training battalion to active service - though latter seems very logical as moving into a bigger pond!]

 

One of my ancestors soared in his SR from Private to acting Serjeant/Serjeant, with such above types of setbacks along the way,

(later ranks/roles variously recorded as "acting Ord. Room Serjeant" and "ORS" at battalion level - guess this ORS is an appointment not a rank.  Finally in a dispersal Records Office again recorded as OR Serjeant - not certain if he ever was substantiated in final rank as a Serjeant, as his MIC still says Private

Beyond SR how can I find out / how should his final "rank" and/or appointment be recorded?  Haven't seen an pay records (are they ever available?) so don't know how he was being paid - would knowing this make any difference?  Were acting- ranks optionally unpaid and paid? - think I have seen both in SR - who would make the decision? - I'm guessing the CO??? - It's quite possibly in KR but it is a big read, so if you know the quick answer ... appreciated for self and others (?).)

The Orderly Room Serjeant (ORS) was an important appointment in a unit. He was the chief clerk within the unit HQ. pre-war would normally have been one of the "Staff" Serjeants  at unit level.

So your ancestor could have been a Serjeant or Staff Serjeant if appointed ORS

 

You seem to also have some confusion not only between Rank/Appointment but also Ranl/Appointment and Trade.

 

For example a man could be a Private and trade Drummer if he was promoted to Cpl. then Sgt they would be his ranks and his trade would be Drummer. There was also an appointment of Drum Sergeant who was the senior Drummer and I believe one of the units Staff Sergeants.

 

bill

[Wazzok1]

21 hours ago, Liz in Eastbourne said:

Wazzok1, I produced my previous example  because I remembered him from researching the last lance-on-lance charge of the 9th Lancers - but  I then searched CWGC records for men with the rank 'Shoeing Smith' in any nationality of army in WW1 and the figure 587 came up.  From a quick glance, most seem to be British, with some Canadians. I haven't time to check which units are involved  (a lot of Royal Field Artillery, not surprisingly) but this could of course be done. So your impression that only one other man apart from your great-grandfather was listed by CWGC with this occupation as a rank is quite wrong.

 

EDIT I am  not arguing against the King's Regs, of course - just saying that CWGC has listed this occupation as their rank. It isn't 'playing semantics' as you said to Craig above to differentiate rank from trade appointment/occupation, but CWGC obviously doesn't always make this distinction. 

 

Liz

 

Sorry, I forgot that I was searching within the parameters of the 307th Brigade RFA.

[Matlock1418]

Bill - Thanks for the reply post - i think it really goes to show how muddled this can get for we mere mortals. That's why I need some sorting out [hopefully only in an informed  way ;-) ].

My ancestor was wartime only - He did his share as Rifleman/Bmber then Runner   - His trade is clearest of all.

His pre-service trade was "Clerk" - his discharge got held back quite a while for his sins!  

Guess what he did for the rest of his life? - clerking (of a sort - rising to Director of a small company) - he really could write very nicely/legibly to his end (which was a long time after both wars!) R.I.P.

[ss002d6252]

Quote

Craig = Think a small typo - in second line of your second post - I think end of your last "Private" should read "... authority of a Corporal" - have I got this right?  - Definitely think I have the gist.

 

You're correct, it was a typo. Should say authority of a Lance Corporal.

Don't quote me on this - As far as I'm aware a Lance Corporal had responsibilities usually below that of a Corporal. A Lance Serjeant however would be a Corporal who had been given the appointment which gave him the powers of a Serjeant but not the substantive rank.

Craig