6th Kings Own Lancaster-J Theobald

[WTheobald]

Good evening.

I've looked at several threads here and found some great information, for that I thank all those who contribute. I would also suggest that even the most tenuous of connections can lead to valuable information, so advise to not ignore something just because it doesn't seem to connect with your own search.

Now, as per title, I am looking at the 6th Kings Own Lancaster. In particular, my Great Grandfather (Pte John Theobald, 13100). I know he died on 9th August 1915, and I think it was during the Sari Bair battle. I wondered if anybody can point me in the direction of where I might find further information? The above is pretty much all I have, other than the medal roll, and that he doesn't have a grave (he is commemorated on panel 32 Helles). I have found no information about what ship he was transported on, not how he was attached to 38th Brigade/13th Western Division. In al honesty, I don't really know what that even means! I have an Ancestry subscription which is good for family tree research but I am having little success with the military side.

Clear, concise information (by concise, I mean easy for those such as me who need these things simplified) seems hard to find.

 

Two small asides, as I can't locate his actual medals, which of the replica companies are the best to obtain replicas from?

Also, this is a very cheeky one, my Grandfather (also Pte John Theobald) died in Belgium in WW2, I have his two medals and pictures of his grave, but no information as to how he found himself in such a small cemetery (Houtem Churchyard) with only a few others and his being the only one from his regiment. His number is 2653277 suggests he joined Coldstream Guards, but I can find absolutely nothing about this. Could anybody offer a direction to head for more information? The Coldstream Guards charge quite a lot even if they find nothing, I have no issue paying but only if I'm sure of getting something even slightly useful.

 

Many thanks for your patience if you got this far.

[GraemeClarke]

Morning,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

Re the first, the War Diaries should be on Ancestry but I'll be blowed if I can find them, perhaps someone else can help on this score.

 

His battalion sailed from Mudros  on 4 August 1915 on "Abassieh" and "Sarnia" and landed at Anzac the following day (5th) and moved to bivouacs at Victoria Gulley. There were 22 officers and 722 other ranks.

 

(They had been on Gallipoli prior to this date having landed early July 1915. Sailed for Mudros on 31st July 1915).

 

On the day of his death the battalion experienced heavy shelling leaving 4 killed and 40 wounded.

 

 

Re the WW2 question, the best site for this is WW2 Talk

 

http://ww2talk.com/forums/index.php

 

There is a special thread there run by Drew/Andy called '1940' and he will probably post the War Diary.

 

This said I can say that his battalion left the day of his death so he may have been killed prior and used this date as an official date of death (speculation)

 

I have this on the battalion,

 

24 May 1940: Enemy Aircraft Attack

The battalion was attacked by 24 German aircraft. During this attack Drummer J Whitbread fired a Bren gun forcing the aircraft to break formation and desist from their attacks. The next day the decision was made to evacuate the BEF through Dunkirk and the 5th Battalion were ordered to hold the line at the River Marcq at Bouvines as part of the 42nd Division.

30 May 1940: Battalion leaves Yser

The 5th Battalion was the last unit of the 42nd Division to withdraw from Yser. They were then moved to Divisional Reserve at Dunkirk.

01 Jun 1940: Departure from France

The majority of the battalion embark on HMS Locust, which arrives at Dover on 2nd June.

 

Hopes this helps, cannot understand why I cannot find the blasted diary though,

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

 

PS. I presume this is your work

 

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=theo&GSiman=1&GScid=2172817&GRid=13912904&

[michaeldr]

Just adding to GC's WWI info (excuse any duplication)

For information on researching a soldier see The Long Long Trail here http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/

and on the make-up of the British Army and the relationship between Battalion/Brigade/Division have a look at http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/

 

The best book giving a description of this August action is by Stephen Chambers in his book ANZAC Sari Bair published by Pen & Sword in their Battleground Europe series [ISBN 978 178159 190 1] Chapter 6, from page 116 onwards covers the 9^th August

 

You will also find details on the movements of this battalion in Ray Westlake's 'British Regiments at Gallipoli' published by Leo Cooper in 1996 [ISBN 0 85052 511 X]

 

Regarding this battle Westlake gives the following details from the battalion's War Diary

“AUGUST

Sailed Abassieh and Sarnia for Gallipoli (4^th). Landed Anzac (5^th) and to bivouacs at Victoria Gully. Strength – 22 officers, 722 other ranks. Heavy shelling (6^th) – 4 killed, 40 wounded. Moved forward via Reserve Gully to Overton Gully about 12 noon (7^th). Later moved forward in support of Australian troops at Damakjelik Bair. Lieutenant N. T. Worthington fatally wounded. Enemy attacked about 4.45 am (9^th) – came under heavy fire from Abdul Rahman Spur. Majors R. L. Carnegy, W. Sandbach, Lieutenant C. L. Mere and Second-Lieutenant R. D. Scolfield killed; Second-Lieutenant F. A. H. Freke-Evans and R. Marsden wounded. Turks driven back with heavy losses by 8 am. War Diary notes casualties caused through trench not being deep enough and parapet not bullet proof. Heavy enemy machine-gun fire and sniping kept up throughout day. Relieved 4 pm and to 39^th Brigade Headquarters at Argyl Dere. Soon after arrival, two companies sent back to Damakjelik Bair to assist 4^th South Wales Borderers and Australians. Remaining two companies bivouacked in nullah south of Aghyl Dere.”

*Westlake gives the casualty figures for the 9th & 10th August together as:- 45 killed, 150 wounded, 50 missing

 

Good luck

Michael

Edited 3 July , 2016 by michaeldr
add *

[michaeldr]

A little further clarification on this very complex action

As quoted above - Later moved forward in support of Australian troops at Damakjelik Bair. Lieutenant N. T. Worthington fatally wounded. Enemy attacked about 4.45 am (9th) – came under heavy fire from Abdul Rahman Spur. Majors R. L. Carnegy, W. Sandbach, Lieutenant C. L. Mere and Second-Lieutenant R. D. Scolfield killed; Second-Lieutenant F. A. H. Freke-Evans and R. Marsden wounded. Turks driven back with heavy losses by 8 am. War Diary notes casualties caused through trench not being deep enough and parapet not bullet proof. Heavy enemy machine-gun fire and sniping kept up throughout day.

 

At this point the battalion was detached from its own Brigade – see the 38^th Brigade War Diary WO95/4032 and the entry for 7^th August: “The Kings Own Regt. were detached from the Bde & came under the orders of the 4^th Australian Brigade.” The latter commanded by Monash.

The 4^th Australian Brigade, now with the 6^th Kings Own attached, formed Major General Cox's No. 4 Column, whose objective was Abdul Rahman Spur and Hill 971.

quote from Steve Chamber's book mentioned earlier – see his Chapter 5 page 96>

“In preparation for the attack on 8^th August, Monash (4^th Australian brigade) had moved forward 14, 15 and 16/AIF before dawn, leaving 13/AIF and 6/Kings Own in the vacated positions to protect the Damakjelik Spur flank.”

[michaeldr]

In view of their involvement with the Australians in this action it is worth looking at the Australian official history – see https://www.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1069531--1-.pdf

pages 653> and in particular the foot note on page 664

[WTheobald]

Gentlemen. Thank you ever so much for your help. I'm going to print everything I can and read it carefully. This is all quite new to me, I am currently building my family tree up and the stories of my Grandfather and Great-Grandfather have always been of huge interest since I was a little boy.

Is it reasonable to assume the date of death may not be the actual date of death, or were they pretty well on the mark?

I have a photograph of my Great-Grandfather from a local newspaper (well, a copy of the photograph), which I think was when he first joined up. He is still in civilian clothing, and frankly looks more like he's entering prison than the Army. Do you know if it might be possible to find uniformed pictures?

I apologise for the endless questions, finding family for a tree is a doddle compared to finding details about soldiers!

[michaeldr]

8 hours ago, WTheobald said:

Is it reasonable to assume the date of death may not be the actual date of death, or were they pretty well on the mark?

 

You are correct to express a doubt about the recording of the date of death

- in such a complex battle which took place over several days,

- which involved the battalion changing from one Brigade command to another and then back again

- and in which so many of the officers died

However on the balance of probabilities, I think one can assume that the given date of death here is most likely the correct one. The Australian history notes that on this single day the battalion lost two of its Majors and 120 Other Ranks. This is the largest single day loss for the battalion in this action

Good Luck

Michael

 

[michaeldr]

Further to my above, it is interesting to note that the CWGC (as ever, acting on information supplied by the army) has the great majority of Kings Own killed, occurring not on the 9^th, but on the 10^th.

 

However, I think that the Australian note may well be more reliable in this case;

it is based on some documentation which was particularly important to the historian,

as the message(s) from the King Own were the first indication that the Australians had been mistaken about their route – quote

“The first implied discovery of the mistake appears in the messages sent by the King’s Own on August 9. On that day this battalion, having through inexperience dug but shallow trenches, was being murderously enfiladed, losing two of its majors and 120 men. This fire was reported by the King’s Own to be coming from Hill 100. But the staff of the 4th Aust. Bde. then believed that Hill 100 was within its own lines."

 

It is possible that in this instance, J Theobald is one of the few men to have the correct date of death recorded

[nigelcave]

Perhaps pedantic, but King's Own.

[michaeldr]

23 hours ago, nigelcave said:

Perhaps pedantic, but...........

 

Don't worry NC

An editor's got t'do, what an editor's got t'do

[Acknown]

Always good to stir up an old thread ...

I am interested in Maj R L Carnegy sited in Post 3 above. I have a good deal of information, but is the WD on Ancestry yet? I can't find it. Any other details about his death would also be welcome.

Acknown

[The Inspector]

Hi Acknown

Have you got this

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60454/de_ruvignys_vol_2-de_ruv_vol2_pg_0058?pid=19838&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D60454%26h%3D19838%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D60506&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.124565513.229826353.1586160776-1783877415.1578070585 and

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/4358823/person/646544147/media/f81a7866-d8da-45e7-bb2c-8fce8095c6bf Public tree on Ancestry 

Regards Barry

Edited 21 April , 2020 by The Inspector

[Acknown]

Barry,

Ah - no. I failed to look in that direction. Very many thanks indeed for pointing it out, it answers all my questions really.

Best wishes,

Acknown

[Acknown]

On 21/04/2020 at 21:26, Acknown said:

it answers all my questions really.

... or not. Does anyone know where the 6th King's Own was when it was occupying the 'shallow trenches' from which it was supporting the 4th Australian Brigade on 09 Aug? It seems that this was somewhat to the east of Overton Gully and the battalion was being fired on from Abdul Rahman Spur. If anyone can point me towards a map that shows all these positions together, I would be most grateful. 

Acknown

[Acknown]

Just popping this to the top of the pile again to see if any one can contribute.

On 04/05/2020 at 16:27, Acknown said:

... or not. Does anyone know where the 6th King's Own was when it was occupying the 'shallow trenches' from which it was supporting the 4th Australian Brigade on 09 Aug? It seems that this was somewhat to the east of Overton Gully and the battalion was being fired on from Abdul Rahman Spur. If anyone can point me towards a map that shows all these positions together, I would be most grateful. 

Thanks.

Acknown

[michaeldr]

Acknown,

 

Thanks for your message.

 

I am afraid that there is precious little which I can offer to take you forward on this matter.

On the day in question the The King's Own were detached from their British 38^th Brigade and were under the Australian 4^th Brigade.

I've checked the file for the 38^th Brigade WD which which I have (WO/95/4302) but it offers nothing new, only confirming on the 7^th August 1915

“The East Lancs & Loyal North Lancs were bivouacked for the night in Overton Gully. The King's Own Regt. were detached from the Bde & came under the 4^th Australian Brigade.” [The WD for The King's Own is not included]

 

The 4^th Australian Infantry Brigade WD can be seen here

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1346514?image=1

but I think that it jumps from the 6^th August and misses several days including the specific dates which you want.

 

The best which I can offer is the Australian Official History seen here https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1069533/document/5519030.PDF

Page 704 has, quote:

“…....Own Royal Lancaster farther inland. Here the Turks met with no success; indeed, as often happened when the troops of one side suffered a disastrous reverse and only in a few places succeedcd even in approaching the line attacked, the higher commanders on the other side barely even heard of the assault or realised that it had occurred. But the attack was evident enough to the front-line troops. At 5.40 the King's Own reported that the enemy was assaulting their left and the right of the 13th, there being a gap between. At the same hour Colonel Tilney of the 13th reported Turks advancing on his left against the Borderers' outposts on Damakjelik. The Borderers drove off the enemy and counter-attacked with three platoons. The assault on the right of the 13th had also been " practically wiped out " by the Australians' fire. Defeated in his first attack, the enemy concentrated a murderous enfilade machine-gun and rifle fire from Alai Tepes* and Hill 100 against the shallow trenches of the King's Own. This battalion, which lost two of its majors and 120 men, called for artillery fire upon those points, but some confusion seems to have occurred in consequence of the mistake concerning the exact position of the 4th Brigade, whose staff still believed that Hill 100 was within their own lines. By the afternoon the King's Own had suffered so heavily that it had to be relieved by the 14th Australian Battalion.”

 

my emphasis

 

I hope that this is of some help

regards

Michael

 

 

[Acknown]

Michael,

That's most helpful, thank you. I had not found the Australian history book so the link is invaluable. I think it proves that Carnegy lost his life on 9th August (de Ruvigny) not the 10th (CWCG and gravestone). It may be that the 10th was when he was buried at the battle site, to be exhumed and moved to the 7th Field Ambulance Cemetery later, probably after the war.

Best wishes,

Acknown

Edited 11 May , 2020 by Acknown