John Beech Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Morning All I have been reading an account of the destruction of LZ-38 commanded by Hauptmann Erich Linnarz on the night of 6th / 7th June 1915. LZ-38 had undertaken a raid on a railway communication centre south of Calais. The original target had been London, but Linnarz received a radio message cancelling the raid and directing him to Calais instead. It appears that this signal was picked up by Room 40 at the Admiralty and passed to RNAS Station at Dunkirk. LZ-38 had just been returned to her shed at at Evere, near Brussels when she was destroyed by Henri Farman bombers flown by Flight Lieutenant John Philip Wilson and Flight Sub Lieutenant John Stanley Mills. Both pilots were awarded the Distinguished Service Cross on 21st June 1915 (London Gazette 22nd June 1915) I am interested in finding out what model of bomber these were and if possible their serial numbers. I have looked in TSTB but cannot find reference to the raid and assume this is because the target was on the ground, rather than in aerial combat. Incidentally, this was the same night that that Flight Sub Lieutenant R A J Warneford won the VC for shooting down LZ-37 at Sint Amandsberg. Ghent. Linnarz had received fame (Infamy?) for having been the first airship commander to attack London the previous week. In addition to this airship, he also commanded LZ-86 on the Eastern Front, not to be confused with the German Navy airship L-39 (LZ-86) which was shot down by French anti aircraft fire on 17th March 1917. His final airship L-51 (LZ-97) was destroyed in the explosion of the shed at Ahlhorn on 5th January 1918 when five airships were destroyed. Although he appears to have been 'unlucky' with his airships, he actually survived the war as a Major. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspern Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Hi John I don't have details of Mill's aircraft but Wilson says "At 12.40am left aerodrome in Henri Farman no.3999". I think there is a little confusion here regarding LZ 97. You give it the naval number L 51 but this is not correct. Linnarz commanded army Zeppelin LZ 97 (which had a Zeppelin works number of LZ 67). Army Zeppelins were numbered by adding 30 to the works number from June 1916. LZ 97 was decommisioned on 5 July 1917 and was not involved in the explosion at the naval airship base at Ahlhorn in 1918. . Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Ser.No.3999 was a B.E.2c. 3998 was an HF of 1Sqn/1 Wing at St Pol in June 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Beech Posted 2 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Hi Ian Thanks for the information. As always, your input is insightful and much appreciated Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspern Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 (edited) 41 minutes ago, horatio2 said: Ser.No.3999 was a B.E.2c. 3998 was an HF of 1Sqn/1 Wing at St Pol in June 1915. Well that is frustrating!! I have in front of me a typed copy of Wilson's report (extract attached) in which it says 3999 - but if he had hand-written his original report and then someone typed it up I guess that person could easily have misread 3999 when it said 3998 - or just hit the wrong key. Annoying though! Edited 2 July , 2016 by Aspern Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Beech Posted 2 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Afternoon Gents Thanks for the information. I take it that No.1 Squadron is the No. 1 (Naval) Squadron quoted in Ian's correspondence. Any idea of Mills' plane and what model of Henry Farman they were both flying? Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 A quick check of "Royal Navy Aircraft, Serials and Units" [Sturtivant & Page] for HF serial numbers (landplanes and seaplanes) appears to show that by June 1915 No.1 (Naval) Squadron had only one HF on its strength, namely Ser.3998., a pusher biplane with 140-HP Canton Unné. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Beech Posted 2 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Hi horatio2 Many thanks for this additional information. I have read on the Net that No. 5 Wing RNAS had the Farman F.40 in 1915 and that the Farman MF.11 Shorthorn was also still in service with the RNAS in 1915. So, if No.1 Squadron only had one Farman, any idea what other aircraft was? I have read on The Aerodrome website that they received three Curtis and two Vickers aircraft in March 1915. The Curtis may have been a Curtis Model R-2 which I see was flown by the RNAS, and the Vickers could they have been F.B.5 or F.B.6? Not sure we will find out! Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Not Curtiss R models but six Curtiss N (Modified) were delivered to No.1 Squadron in late March 1915 (sers.1362 - 1367. All were returned to UK within a couple of months and deleted by August 1915. Four ex-RFC, Vickers F.B.5 Gunbus airframes (Sers.861 - 864) joined No.1 Squadron at about the same time but they too were transferred/deleted in short order. No F.B.6 in RNAS service I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspern Posted 2 July , 2016 Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Like Wilson, Mills also says he flew a Henri Farman in his report. And in his book, "From Sky to Sea", Arthur Longmore says "I sent off Warneford and Rose on their Moranes to intercept in the vicinity of Ghent, and Wilson and Mills in their big weight-carrying Henri Farmans to bomb the Zeppelin sheds at Evere, near Brussels." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Beech Posted 2 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2016 Hi Gents Many thanks for this additional information, so its possible that the Mills flew a Curtis or Vickers F.B.5 if No.1 Squadron only had one Farman? Although, who am I to tell Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Longmore that he couldn't identify his aircraft! Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspern Posted 3 July , 2016 Share Posted 3 July , 2016 Here is Mills report - sorry couldn't make the image small enough yesterday, He says he was flying a Henri Farman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Beech Posted 3 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2016 Afternoon Ian So Mills was in a Farman after all and therefore No.1 Squadron had more than one. I take back what I said about Longmore! Thanks for this additional information Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 3 July , 2016 Share Posted 3 July , 2016 19 hours ago, horatio2 said: A quick check of "Royal Navy Aircraft, Serials and Units" [Sturtivant & Page] for HF serial numbers (landplanes and seaplanes) appears to show that by June 1915 No.1 (Naval) Squadron had only one HF on its strength, namely Ser.3998., a pusher biplane with 140-HP Canton Unné. Please note that I did say "..appears to show..." and we are still no nearer to positively identifying both of the two HFs mentioned in the typescripts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Beech Posted 3 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2016 Hi Horatio2 Apologies, didn't wish to imply any criticism in the information you provided. I am always surprised that you can ask a question like a type of aircraft for one specific action and get a response. I am always grateful. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 3 July , 2016 Share Posted 3 July , 2016 A deeper study of the information on HF F.27 serials delivered to the RNAS indicates [Sturtivant] that the aircraft delivered to No.1 Wing at St Pol from the batch Ser. Nos. 3617 - 3636 arrived with the Wing in July and August 1915. No.1 Squadron had become No.1 Wing on 21 June 1915. However, two of the F.27s are noted as: "3623 ... Delivered 1 Wing ... on/by 26.8.15"; and "3624 ... Delivered 1 Wing ... on/by 16/8/15". However, to be operational for the Evere attack on the night of 6/7 June they would have had to be delivered to No.1 Squadron St Pol. in late May or early June, apparently well in advance of all the other eighteen F.27 deliveries in this batch, to No.1 Wing and elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Beech Posted 4 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2016 Morning Horatio2 My knowledge on aircraft is limited (as you have probably gathered!) If it was known that the Farman F27 were to be delivered to 1st Wing, is it possible that aircraft could be sent to them prior to the main delivery to allow the crews to familiarise themselves with it through test flights etc.? If so that could account for the additional Farman being there in June, but would they have been allowed to fly them operationally? Presumably there would be a concern if they were brought down and gave an insight to the Germans. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdparker Posted 5 July , 2016 Share Posted 5 July , 2016 This photo was part of the collection of my grandfather Air Mechanic F G Parker at St Pol Dunkerque probably during 1915. It shows several machines as discussed in this thread _I don't know if anyone can put a date to it which may help to answer the question of aircraft types in No1 Sqdn/Wing RNAS. Although they could be French? Using my mother's trusty electronic magnifier some numbers can be seen Voisin ? machine on left-VM21 Monoplane Morane ?-MS or 5 Biplanes to right of picture-LV39 or LM39 VM18 or VM19 VM29 Does this help? Can anybody identify the machines in the photo and give an approximate date? Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 The Admiralty "Disposition of Aircraft" for 21 June 1915 (corrected to 6pm 20 June 1915) shows four Henri Farman Ser. Nos. 3998, 8246, 8247 and 8248 (the last three F.27 "All Steel" 140-HP types) in 'A' Squadron, No.1 Wing. No precise date of delivery can be found but I expect the Evere raid aircraft were two of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspern Posted 7 July , 2016 Share Posted 7 July , 2016 That reminds me - when Reginald Warneford died on 17 June 1915 he was killed when a Henri Farman he was to bring back to the squadron from Paris crashed. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Beech Posted 8 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 8 July , 2016 Hi Horatio2 Thanks for your efforts in pinning down these aircraft. With Ian confirming that Wilson had 3998, you have managed to narrow Mills down to flying a Henri Farman F.27 and to one of three aircraft from minimal information. I for one am impressed! Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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