Signature of Sgt., 1/6th, 18th, 17th W. Yorks 17-18

[DavidIsby]

 

Can you identify this signature?

This person served in the British Army in the Great War.  After service in the 17^th battalion the West Yorkshire Regiment (Leeds Bantams) and as an instructor at the Fourth Army Musketry School, served briefly with the 1/8^th West Yorks in early 1918 then went to the 1^st/6^th West Yorks (Bradford Rifles) where he was a sergeant platoon leader in A company.  He was wounded in early April 1918, avoiding the destruction of his battalion a few weeks later.

My main methodology has been to use the National Archives (UK) site and search WO 372, the roll for British Army Great War medals.  Because the service records for the Great War are incomplete (they burned in the Second World War), this is the first stop for researchers.

Criteria (all applied to WO 372):

1)   name H*ry H*l* AND consistent with appearance of signature. (e.g., no tall or below the line letters appear in surname after the initial letter l).

2)   West Yorkshire (PWO) Regiment.

3)   Sergeant, AFTER MIC ACCESSED, APPLIED THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA:

4)   Alive in 1963. (checking with Ancestry.Uk or findmypast.com).

5)   Service details consistent with narrative.

Searching the NA (UK) WO 372 produced no Holins and none meeting the above criteria for Holins, Holium, Holin, Holian, Hollins.

I consulted the cards for a number of others – several Harry Holmes and Henry Holmes – but none met the criteria.  If he stayed in the military post-1922, his name would not be in WO 372.  However, the spreadsheet issued by the MoD(UK) of all people born in the xix c. whose records they still hold had no Holins.  They did have people Henry and Harry Holmes, but no way of knowing whether they meet the other criteria.

I initially thought that this was the signature of Henry O. Holins (possibly Henry C. Holins) and posted about him in the SOLDIERS section of this forum, where it was expertly pointed out that there was no person by that name and no evidence of one being a sergeant in the West Yorkshire Regiment still alive in 1963.  Ancestry.com, Find my Past and Birth Marriage Death websites have confirmed this.

So, who was this person?

 

 

[Uncle George]

Have you tried a search on 'freebmd', the record of births, marriages and deaths? I've had a quick look, found a Henry Holis, born 1891. But he's 'Henry J Holis'. Freebmd has a wildcard function, so you could search for 'Henry Hol*', and so on.

 

EDIT: I see you did mention BMD - sorry.

[DavidIsby]

Many thanks.  I have encountered many of his contemporaries named Henry Holmes and Harry Holmes, even the distinguished Horace Holmes DCM and one poor tommy who had been named Sherlock Holmes.  I checked the MICs of all those that had "West Yorkshire Regiment" indicated, but none of these indicated they had ever worn three stripes on their arm.

 

The same result followed for a range of possible spellings.  Holian looked promising, but the ones in WO372 all were in the Connaught Rangers.

 

 I habe appended a matrix showing the MICs I consulted, which did not prove a successful approach in identifying this person, who wrote a short narrative (in the end-papers of the unit history) of his service with the 1st/6th W. Yorks.

 

Hol?-West Yorkshire Regiment.pdf

[johnboy]

The H in Henry looks different to the H in the surname. The initial could be O?

[Uncle George]

Maybe the surname doesn't start with an 'H'. Perhaps it's an Irish name, starting with O'.

[DavidIsby]

The Irish idea sounded interesting, so I went to National Archives WO 372 site and searched for Last name: O'H*, first name: H*, regiment: Yorkshire.  Yielded five names, none a sergeant in the West Yorks.  Then I removed the first name, got 64 names, again, none a sergeant in the West Yorks.

 

Thanks anyway for a great idea!

 

[DavidIsby]

I also searched the National Archives WO 372 page for: Last name: Oh*, first name: H*.  Got no one.  But, like the Irish name, it was a great idea to check out.

[johnboy]

The more I look at it, the first letter of the first name does not look like a H.

Is there any more writing on the page to compare it with?

[johnboy]

Maybe the war diary might mention him by name?

[Guest]

You can go through this lot for a Sgt? Click

 

Mike

[DavidIsby]

I downloaded from WO 95 at the National Archives (UK) the war diaries of the three battalions he served with in 1917-18: 17th, 1st/8th and 1st/6th West Yorkshires. None of these have anyone that looks like him among the (few) NCOs mentioned by name.  The 17th does not give the name of their last RSM and RQMS, with whom he went down to the depot at Etaples when the 17th was disbanded.  He does mention two West Yorkshire soldiers (WO2 Lawrence Pickering and Sgt. Matthew Handley) that can be identified through WO 372 and two that cannot because of no first name and multiple candidates identified through WO 372 (Corp. Quinn & Corp. Bullock).  

 

I will try and scan and post his manuscript as a pdf file.  His handwriting is relatively clear, which is why I was surprised that he was not Henry O. Holins (one "l").

 

[johnboy]

That might be helpful. I have tried linking the H in Henry? using F or S but it does not really fit. Some more script might help.

[DavidIsby]

 I have uploaded a jpg of the first page of the narrative.  I've scanned the complete narrative, but that is 2.4MB in pdf and cannot be uploaded here in that format.

 

[johnboy]

Even with that amount of script I am struggling! I think the first name might be Harry. The surname is still a mystery,!

[HarryBrook]

Could what appears to be H after the O in the surname be a two linked t's ?

There is a medal index card for a Harry Ottolini 17/490 West Yorkshire Regt. Cpl. on the M.I.C. but 17th Bn.

 

Edit to add: The medal roll shows him as L/Sgt. but this was struck out and amended to Cpl. His battalions have also been changed - it looks like after 17th he was 1/8th and then 1/6th. Alteration made to 1/8th entry. Forum rules prevent uploading an image of the entry.

 

Edit to add: Link to the medal roll http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5119/41629_626640_11598-00201?pid=4345058&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DXOg3969%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DHarry%26gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DOttolini%26gsln_x%3D0%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26MSAV%3D0%26uidh%3Duci%26pcat%3D39%26h%3D4345058%26recoff%3D5%206%26db%3DIWOServiceMedalAwardRolls%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=XOg3969&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

[Guest]

If you're right Harry, that is genius. Here's a link to MIC Click

 

Mike

[johnboy]

I hope you are right as well! See posts # 4,8,and 15!

[DavidIsby]

Harry Ottolini could well be our man.  A quick glance at Ancestry.com suggests he was living in West Yorkshire up until the mid-1960s.  Next steps will be to get the MIC from the NA (UK) and go back over the war diaries of the 17th, 1/8th and 1/6th West Yorks to see if he is among the few NCOs mentioned by name in them.  

[DavidIsby]

First, thanks to all those that shared their knowledge.  I greatly appreciate it.

 

Having downloaded his MIC, could those with more familiarity with these documents tell me:

 

Is it common for promotions not be to reflected on medal cards?  He signed himself as a sergeant, although this may well have been acting and/or temporary.

[Guest]

The "Little Men" had their own night in Leeds last night. The occasion was the annual reunion dinner at the Victoria Hotel of the 17th Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment-in other words the "Leeds Bantams" They came from Leeds, Bradford, Birstall, Huddersfield and Dewsbury. D.C.M.'s, M.M.'s, and one V.c., among them- and never once boasted about their exploits. The Leeds Bantams made a big name for themselves during the war, but I discovered that Bantams of the Leeds variety never crow. There were 60 at the dinner and the average height was about 5ft 1 in. The secretary, Mr Harry Ottolini told me that if he stands on his tiptoes he is still only 5 ft and a ¼ inch, and in his first year with the Bantams he added three stone to his weight. Leeds Mercury - Saturday 11 March 1939.

 

Mike

[Guest]

Was post 21 of any interest?

 

Mike

[DavidIsby]

Yes.  thank you very much.  I went to the British newspaper website and looked for any other references.  I suspect there may be others in the West Yorks regimental journal, as these normally had news on old comrades' associations.  A photo of Harry Ottolini still remains illusive.  T

hanks for your help.

[Guest]

Good man. Wasn't sure if you had seen it. I think all the credit goes to the genius of HarryBrook. Good luck in finding a photograph.

 

Mike

[DavidIsby]

Absolutely.  I could not see the conjoined tt in his signature as anything other than an H.  Required a fresh look.

[Guest]

On 7/6/2016 at 12:03, johnboy said:

I hope you are right as well! See posts # 4,8,and 15!

 

Also fair to mention johnboy's contribution. I think the Forum deserves a round of applause for solving a very difficult puzzle.

 

Mike