LAMB & LCP units

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi everyone!

There are several small War Cemeteries in Israel that were abandoned in the 60's (Fascinating story on its own, but that’s not what I'm writing about), one of them is in the area of Junction Station. One of the members of The Society for the Heritage of World War I in Israel  is showing tremendous interest in this particular abandoned cemetery, and every once in a while is mowing around and cleaning it up.

Recently, I went with him over the details of The Capture of Junction Station (November 14^th, 1917), and I realized that I know very little about the LAMB / LACB – Light Armoured Motor/Car Batteries (2 cars were involved in The Capture of Junction Station). By the way – in the war literature the word "Armoured" is used while today we use "Armored". Any idea why?

Same thing as to LCP's – Light Car Patrols. My knowledge on these is so far also quite limited.

 

I found some material about the LCP's, both about the original No. 1 (Australian) LCP, and the later Model T Ford cars LCP's (including the 7^th (Australian) LCP). I understand that a battery was probably 6 cars strong, but not about the number of people operating within each battery. However, there are several question marks as to many other LCP's were active in this theatre of war (Palestine).

I found very little about the LAMB units – I understand that the standard car was Rolls Royce, but I don't know much more. In the different sources I checked (below) sometimes there is a reference to " Light Armoured Motor (or car) Batteries", sometimes to "Armoured Motor Batteries" (Are they different?) and once to "Armoured Car Brigade (11 Rolls–Royces)" – In one reference HQ was mentioned. Don't know how many people man each car, how many cars per battery, HQ, service etc.

  

I tried to check several sources as to the existence & location of both LAMB & LCP units within the EEF. Very confusing results, in the different sources I checked: The OH (C. Falls); A brief record of the advance of the EEF; The long long trail; Wikipedia. I've also browsed through a few forums' threads that discussed this issue.  

According to these very confusing different results, there were 5 or 6 LCP's (Maybe more) and 2 to 5 LAMB units (Numbered 1, 2, 3, 11, 12).

 

To summarize –  H E L P ! !

 

Eran

[spof]

Eran

 

There is a possible book about Australian armour listed on the Australian War Memorial website - https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/LIB100045890/ It would also be worth contacting the AWM to see what else they hold on the units.

 

Glen

 

[michaeldr]

Eran,

 

Armoured = UK English (see today's http://www.army.mod.uk/armoured/23446.aspx)

whilst Armored = USA english

How do they do it in Canada with their French/English? – well its The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps (RCAC; French: Corps blindé royal canadien) or so wiki informs me

 

All the OoB which I have checked give these units as belonging to the Machine Gun Gorps:

Is there a MGC history which might cover this?

 

Re “One of the members of The Society for the Heritage of World War I in Israel  is showing tremendous interest in this particular abandoned cemetery, and every once in a while is mowing around and cleaning it up.”

If any help is needed then please note that my Gimmel has been cancelled and that I have some experience in this field (Nazareth & Haifa) – so if anyone wants any help or just an extra pair of hands every now and again, then please do not hesitate to get in touch.

 

I believe that any servicemen originally buried in this place will now be remembered at Ramleh

“The RAMLEH 1914-18 MEMORIAL, erected in 1961 to commemorate more than 300 Commonwealth, German and Turkish servicemen of the First World War who lie buried in cemeteries elsewhere in Israel where their graves could no longer be maintained. Only 74 of the casualties are named.”

from http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/72001/RAMLEH WAR CEMETERY

 

 

with best regards

Michael

[IainAlexander]

Eran,

 

The early history of the Light Car Patrols is well-recorded in a book published in 2013 called 'Light Car Patrols 1916-19' edited by Russell McGuik but with a large section written in the 1920's by Captain Claud Williams who had served in and led an LCP.

 

The Light Car Patrols were originally formed in March 1916 by Lynden-Bell using volunteers from British Yeomanry Cavalry Regiments that had been deployed into the Western Desert of Egypt to fight the Senussi.

Lynden-Bell sets up Light Car Patrols

1 LCP    Fife & Forfar Yeo                               Kargha

2 LCP    Cheshire Yeo                                      Minia / B6

3 LCP    Shropshire Yeo                                  Minia / B6

4 LCP    City of London Yeo                           Dabaa

5 LCP    Pembroke Yeo                                   Wadi Natrun

6 LCP    Denbigh Yeo                                       Moghara

 

They were later supplemented by an Australian Car Patrol which had started life as the 1st Australian Armoured Car Section but their vehicles were too heavy for effective use in the desert and were soon worn out so the section was re-roled as an LCP. The best Australian history I've found is at  http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse/index.blog?entry_id=1818128 which has a lot of information on the Sinai and Palestine campaigns; see also http://www.desert-vehicles.org/index.php?article_id=225  -

 

When the original yeomanry regiments were re-deployed elsewhere and often merged into infantry battalions, the LCPs were left in the Western Desert and Claud Williams noted they became almost parent-less and didn't fit into any formal, authorised British military organisation. For a time in Egypt, they were treated as GHQ troops but eventually, they were attached to the Motor Machine Gun Corps. Some patrols did re-deploy to Palestine but others continued to patrol the Western Desert of Egypt into 1919 as they were highly effective.

 

  

[Guest]

Mate,

 

The 7 LCP was not Australian but British, its commander was a Kiwi who later worked in Australia (MacKenzie)

 

No 7 LCP and No 1 ALCP (Australian) operated together during 1917 along with two British heavy AC units No 11 and 12 LAMB

 

There was also 17 MMGB which arrived around June 1917

 

There should be something on this on this site, as we have mentioned these before some years ago.

 

While I can't find any thing on the JS operations off hand, I'll check some other sources.

 

One sources mentions the fighting near there by the 12 LAMB attached to the Aust MD, will need more checking.

 

It appears possibly Capt Seton, commander 12 LAMB with two cars, supported units of the 7th Mounted Bde and 2nd ALH Bde around 14/15 Nov 1917 around JS.

While no direct mention of the 12 LAMB during this fighting is mentioned reports say that these two AC were used.

 

See war dairy Australian Mounted Division dated Nov 1917

 

Cheers

S.B

[Stuart24]

Hello,

 

One of your questions was on the size of the units: initially, each patrol had six cars, with about 30 personnel.  However, I'm not sure how many of these were mechanics/support staff.  The Light Car force had a central depot with mechanical and logistics staff as well, but presumably these only dealt with major problems, with the patrols themselves dealing with routine maintenance and minor issues.  Casualties, sickness and leave probably meant that all 30 men were not involved in active patrols, and certainly in the Western Desert the usual crews were 2-3 men per car.

 

Cheers

Stuart

[MaureenE]

There may be something of interest on the Fibiwiki page Royal Tank Corps.

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Royal_Tank_Corps

 

The main emphasis is on the Armoured Car Companies from the early 1920s in India,  but there were  Armoured Motor Batteries and Armoured Motor Brigades of the Machine Gun Corps prior to this  (in India) and some of the information is of a general nature.

 

 

6 LAMB in Iraq became part of the 1st Armoured Car Co. of the Tank Corps at the end of 1920, which subsequently went on the serve in India.

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

 

[Eran Tearosh]

Thanks to everyone!

 

Still, in regards to the LCP & LAMB units in the Palestine Campaign - everything is very very confusing.

 

Steve – Like you, I was under the understanding that there were 4 units active here: The 11th & 12th LAMB and the 1st & 7th LCP (Thanks for clarifying the fact the 7th was British – As this unit operated under the Australian Mounted Division, it led me to believe that it was Australian too, like the 1st LCP). These are the LCP & LAMB units mentioned both in the British HO (Falls) Order of Battle September 1918 and the same (i.e. September 1918) in the detailed Wikipedia site dedicated to the various Orders of Battles of the EEF 1916-18 (However, additional units are mentioned in relation to other periods during 1916 & 1917, and in other sources – I’ll return to this shortly).

 

I’ve seen the reference in The Long Long Trail to the 17 MMGB – I also found it mentioned in the Wikipedia version (Only!) of the Order of Battle of the Eastern Force, April 1917. However, this battery is not mentioned later in any of the lists of the Orders of Battles, and I don’t recall reading about them (In terms of actions) anywhere either. Furthermore, The Long Long Trail mentions that the 17 MMGB is later re-designated as 15 LAMB. Haven’t found even a single reference to this battery, either in lists or in actions.

 

Now to Junction Station. Indeed, 2 cars of the 12 LAMB were at Masmia early in the morning of Nov. 14th, under orders to report to the Australian Mounted Division. Major-General Palin (Commander of the 75 Division) “hijacked” those cars and ordered them to join and assist the 234 Brigade in the capture of the station. The cars passed the advancing infantry and came into action at 08.25. Soon after the cars were joined by the 123 Rifles Battalion and soon afterwards by the rest of the 234 Brigade.

 

Steve, you mentioned “One sources mentions the fighting near there by the 12 LAMB attached to the Aust MD, will need more checking”. The question is, are those cars the same ones from Junction Station, or other cars from the same Battery (Can you point at the source?).

 

______________________________________________

 

LainAlexander – Thanks! I have noted that quite a lot of the LCP’s activities were in Western Egypt and Libya. Does the book 'Light Car Patrols 1916-19’ also include parts about the activities in Palestine? As I am quite connected to the Australians here – I am very familiar with Australian sources.

 

_____________________________________________

 

Stuart – thank you. If the personal of each LCP is 30 people, and as the 6 LCP’s cars (Ford) were usually manned by a crew of 2-3 each, this means that they were at least 12 people in each unit dealing with maintenance etc. I guess each unit needed some sort of small scale “depot”, with spare parts, fuel etc. Any idea how this worked (Horse carts? Lorries?)? You mentioned that there was a central depot for the Light Car Force, and I guess it was located in Egypt. Do you know how the cars serving in the East (Sinai and later – Palestine) were served?

 

_______________________________________________

 

Glen – The Australian LCP is the most recorded one of the LCP’s units on the Internet. There are tons of info regarding them. The question is if this new book will have new insights. I hope it will have at least new photos of high quality. Do you have a copy?

 

______________________________________________

 

Maureen – Quite a wealth of links there! Finally, something about the LAMB units, but, as you mentioned, most about the Indian theater, and some of general nature. So far, found very little about the LAMB units in the Palestine theater.

 

By the way – I just had an in-depth look into the events of Haifa 1918 and visited some the lesser known sites of this battle, mostly those on the top of Mt. Carmel (Karmelheim).

 

________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________

 

I really would like to know a bit more about the LAMB units, including car crew, number of cars per battery, personal, maintenance, depot etc.

 

I’ll try to summarize the confusing results from the three sources I examined as to number and distribution of the LCP & LAMB units (In addition to the British HO and Wikipedia – I relay a lot on A brief record of the Advance of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force, which, for me, is a fantastic source, most times quite reliable. Available on the Internet).

 

Let’s start with the LCP units, 1917: According to both the British HO and Wikipedia, 8 LCP units were active under the EEF, 6 of them under Delta and Western Force. According to Advance of the EEF, 9 LCP units were active, while LCP’s No’s 1,2,3,4,8 were under The Desert Mounted Corps and LCP’s No’s 5,6,7,9 were under the Force in Egypt (LCP 7 defiantly was active in Palestine, at least a little later).  You see why I’m confused?...

 

As to Lamb units, all sources agree that there were 5 batteries under the command of the EEF, No’s 1,2,3,11,12 LAMB. All sources agree that LAMB No’s 11 & 12 were active in Palestine. The differences are about where the other batteries were positioned, and when. According to Advance of the EEF, No. 1 L.A.C. Battery was Lent to British mission in Hijaz.

 

In the British HO, at October 1917, LAMB units 2 & 3 were under the Desert Mounted Corps and served (Together with LAMB No’s 11 & 12) as Corps troops. According to Advance of the EEF, No. 2 Light Armoured Car Battery was under the Desert Mounted Corps, while No. 3 Light Armoured Car Battery was under the Force in Egypt. According to Wikipedia – No’s 1, 2, 3 Light Armoured Motor Batteries were in Egypt. I guess that by now you understand me better….

 

No mention, anywhere, of the 15 LAMB! I don’t remember coming across any reference to actions of the LAMB No. 2 in the Palestine campaign.

 

Thanks again for all the help so far!

 

Eran

Edited 8 October , 2016 by Eran Tearosh

[IainAlexander]

Eran,
The Light Car Patrols book is primarily about the Western Desert as Captain Claud Williams, its main source, only served in Egypt, not in Palestine. My notes on the LCPs, which were compiled from Russell McGuirk’s book but also from war diaries of the EEF formations are as follows
-    March 1916 – 1-6 LCPs established in Western Desert
-    December 1916-Australian Armoured Car Section re-equipped as 1 Australian LCP and moved to Kargha Oasis but later moved to Sinai starting 18 May 1917
-    May 1917 - 7 LCP established in Sinai
-    September 1917 British LCP’s become part of Machine Gun Corps
-    October 1917 2, 3 and 4 LCPs transferred from Western Desert to Palestine; making five patrols in all
-    This left three LCPs in Egypt – 1 LCP at Karhga, 5 LCP by then at Sollum and 6 LCP at Moghara – to cover the Western Desert
-    I have no records of 8 or 9 LCP ever having existed.
Hope that helps
Iain Alexander
 

[Guest]

Mate,

 

As to the 17 MMGB, while I have a report stating it arrived in June 1917, another shows this unit at 2nd Gaza, where it was attach to the Aust MD  and ran over a soldier during the battle;

 

GILES   Donald Alfred   3113   Pte   10 LHR   24R Tos B Sqn? 4-17 WIA 19-4-17 shell shock & R/eye reported run over by Armoured Car from 17 MMGB (15 LAMB) in fighting at Atawine Redoubt at 2nd Gaza

 

Mate yes I have it converted to the 15 LAMB (possibly in June 1917 date?)

 

As to the two cars from 12 LAMB, that is shown in the War Diary of the Australian Mounted Division dated Nov 1917, but other then the mention of two cars from Capt Seton's unit little is mentioned of there actions during the battle, so I can't confirm if they are the same two cars?.

 

Sorry

 

As the 7 LCP I have it as the first unit attached to the Desert Column during late 1916 and was used at Rafa Jan 1917, reports show it on operations until the others (1 ALCP and the 11 & 12 LAMB) arrived after Jan 1917, but dates for there arrival I can't confirm?

S.B
 

 

[Guest]

Eran,

 

Found another ref to the 17 MMGB in April;

 

1-4-17 Camel Bde with 1Bn ICC moved to Abasan el Kebir for patrol work passed Sheikh Nuran and Waddi Ghuzze with 17 LAMB/MMGB

 

But when it arrived at the Sinai Front I can't find, the June 1917 date said;

 

17 MMGB returned to Egypt 6-17 possibly to convert to 15 LAMB

 

Cheers

 

S.B

 

[charlesmessenger]

17 MMGB was operating in Palestine by April 1917, using five Studebaker cars armed with MGs. It converted to 15 LAMB (which also had personnel from 1 (Willoughby's) Armoured Motor Bty) in June 1917. 15 LAMB moved to Mesopotamia in August 1917 and operated in North Persia from October 1918. It was absorbed by No 1 Armoured Car Coy of the Tank Corps in January 1921.

 

 

[Guest]

Charles,

 

Thanks mate.

 

The 11 LAMB arrived in Feb 1917 but there is still no details on the arrival of the 12 LAMB and 17 MMGB before showing up in records for April 1917.

 

I could find no record of them in Australian documents (Anzac MD and Desert Column war diaries) of them during March at 1st Gaza?

 

So did they arrive around the same time with the Heavy section of the MGC (Tanks)?

 

Will keep looking.

 

S.B

[charlesmessenger]

Steve

 

17 MMGB was with the Western Frontier Force (WFF) in January 1917, but I don't have a formation date. 11 & 12 LACB (LAMB) arrived  in Egypt in April 1916, raking over cars from the Emergency Sqn of the Royal Naval Armoured Car Division. They joined WFF the following month and deployed to Palestine in March 1917.

 

Charles M

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Interesting Charles, I have an Australian report that shows the 11 LAMB with the 7 LCP on operations in Feb 1917 around Gaza.

 

Did a section of AC's moved before the main body in March, possibly?

 

The 17 MMGB must have also arrived in March because it was on operations on the 1 April 1917.

 

Cheers

S.B

[blindsay]

Hi All

My grandfather was Alfred Stewart Lindsay known as Mac. He was born in New Zealand, came to Glasgow just prior to WW1, joined the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, saw the tail end of Gallipoli and then was Captain of LCP1. I was delighted that Russell McGuirk saw my earlier post on this website which led to me lending him Mac's photo album for his book on Light Car Patrols. 

Mac served in the Western Desert Egypt from 1916 to 1919. He, with several others won the MC for his involvement in the Senussi Campaign but I can't find out what actions deserved this. He also won the Croix de Guerre but again I can't find out why. Interestingly his passport says he visited Merseilles on 31 Jan 1917. He stayed behind in Egypt after WW1 and was awarded the MBE ; again I cannot find out why. He was one of those in charge of Lord Allenby's visit in 1919 and he must also have been active in quelling the Egyptian uprising in Cairo in 1919. 

Mac modified his Model T Ford quite considerably and I attach some photos of his car which he named Bluebird. These particular photos are from 1919 ; his earlier photos can be found in Russell's book.

My father said that after the war Mac lived near Horley (Gatwick Airport) and his neighbour (and friend) was Malcolm Campbell. My father said that Malcolm liked the name Bluebird that he adopted it. Wikipedia says that Malcolm named it after an opera, but you never know.

Bill (William Stewart Lindsay)

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Bill,

 

Thank you for the photos, yes Russ's book was very good.

 

The only part missing were the units that served in Palestine, hope he looks at this area next, to clear up many of the above points.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 5 July , 2017 by stevebecker

[Guest]

Find these pictures on the web a long time ago. It was tagged as "12 Battery RR Armored car captured by the Turks" any one who could confirm? 

[charlesmessenger]

Yes, it is a 12 Light Armoured Motor Battery Car. Interesting pic.

 

 Charles M

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, charlesmessenger said:

Yes, it is a 12 Light Armoured Motor Battery Car. Interesting pic.

 

 Charles M

Charles.

Interesting indeed  - not seen that one before. The way it's written it's 12th Battery, L.A.M.B (brigade). As not one of the units in the Mesopotamia L.A.M.B Brigade. This would be Palestine and late war, but I do not have anything on which units made up this Brigade. I have an ASC casualty (driver) listed as being attd.  "2nd Bty. Light Armoured Car Bde" in Palestine September 1918. Also have a 12th Battery MGC(M) casualty in Palestine 19/01/1919.

Do you believe this was 12th LACB?

Edited 12 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[Guest]

Mate,

 

You also had me looking?

 

A report shows the 11th LAMB with the 1 ALCP on operations (with 4th Indian Cav Div) during Sept 1918 and were with the 2nd Lancers when they over ran the 13th (Turkish) depot Regt as shown in the other question.

 

The 12th LAMB was with the 5th Indian Cav Div during that date

 

Was it lost some time during that time?

S.B

[charlesmessenger]

David & Steve

 

I am pretty certain that it is 12 LAMB. I have a note taken many years ago from the unit war diary, which states  that on 5 August 1918 it received a Roll Royce armoured car to replace that lost on 1 May. Alas, I failed to record the circumstances.

 

Charles M

[Eran Tearosh]

Charles & CEM,

 

The date solves the mystery. On May 1st, 1918, (End of The Second Raid into Trans-Jordan) the Ottoman's launched a counter-attack in the Jordan Valley.

From Fall's British HO: "Two cars of the 12th Light Armoured Motor Battery took up a position on the left flank. One stuck in a deep rut and was abandoned"

(Vol. 2, Part 1, p 376).

 

Eran 

 

 

[Guest]

Thanks to everyone and especially to Eren,

This petymuch explains the good condition of the captured car.

 

 

 

[Ian Morton]

This photograph might help to give an idea of the complement of a Light Armoured Car Battery. It is of No. 2 LACB and, as the photographer’s place of business is identified, was very likely taken in Aleppo. The photo is featured in that Battery’s Christmas/New Year card; the cover is reproduced below. The original print is pale sepia but it was scanned black and white, which seems to give a clearer image. The print measures 15.3cms x 11cms. The card front was scanned in colour.

 

 

 

The ‘sister’ group photograph from No. 2 Light Car Patrol’s 1918 Christmas card was used by Russell McGuirk in his book Light Car Patrols 1916-19. However, he did not use the cover of that card which is reproduced below. Perhaps not legible on this image size, what is probably the artist’s name, Goeling, is at the bottom. More obvious is the ‘serpent’ as the S in Syria. It is clear from the originals of both cards that the two photographs were taken in the same place, probably by the same photographer though there is no identifying sticker on 2 LCP’s card.

 

 

No. 2 LCP left Sollum on 11th October 1918, beginning a journey through Palestine and Syria, joining the 5th Cavalry Division near Hama on, or shortly after, 23rd October, and arriving in Aleppo on 26th October. It seems, then, that both photographs were taken after that date and before Christmas 1918. A plausible guess would be that the photos were taken after the Armistice and in time to send them home for Christmas.

 

A pass giving permission for members of 2 LCP to go into Aleppo, stamped ‘No. 2 Light Car Patrol’ and dated 26/12/1918, is signed ‘R.C.V. Hamilton Lt., Cmdg. Nos. 2 & 4 LCP’. Presumably No. 4 LCP was also in, or camped near, Aleppo at that time.

2 LCP seems to have stayed in, or around, Aleppo until April 19th 1919 when it left for Aintab, now known as Gaziantep, in Turkey’s south-eastern Anatolian region. The Patrol was in Aintab, or that region, until at least June 1919. Some members of 2 LCP, perhaps all, were demobilised from Aintab.

 

[McGuirk confirms that both No. 2 and No. 4 LCPs left Sollum for Palestine during October 1918 (op.cit. p.103). Iain Alexander’s post - above, 4th July 2016 - suggests that No. 2 LCP left for Palestine in October 1917. The 1917 date seems to be a typo.]