Execution Post, Poperinge

[john w.]

by the way we seem to have strayed a way from the original thread....

John

[Paul Reed]

Last year, the tours that I organise took more than 6,000 people to Hill 62/Sanctuary Wood.

Despite the many comments and opinions expressed here - some of which I share - you might be surprised to know it is in fact one of the most popular places we visit on all of our 'general' battlefield tours. People seem to think the decay, the smell, and the whole make-up of the place "appropriate", believe it or not...

[Paul Reed]

here's a photo of the Kasteelhof trenches taken in March ,this year...

Do we realise these trenches are fake - in that they were dug, I believe, by Englishman Mark Horner of Salient tours, when he operated out of Hooge Chateau in the early 1990s. I see nothing wrong with this, but reading between the lines some people appear to see them as 'original' - they are are certainly less so than those at the might malined Sanctuary Wood.

[john w.]

There is no doubt in my mind that they are popular, it is the presentation of what is there that seems to be causing the problem

John

[Hedley Malloch]

We shouldn't criticise people for making a living from the Western Front. They are satisying a need by providing a service, providing employment and pumping money into the local economy. Think about what the Front would be like without them. What is wrong is to pass off something false as the real thing, though what one can do about it is far from clear. The only redeeming feature of SW is that it's blatantly obvious that it's a phoney. One problem is that the Disneyworlds of our existence are infinitely preferable to the real thing for many people. Nobody ever lost money by underestimating public taste and awareness.

I do like the nomenclature of Disney Trenches for SW. I formally propose that we adopt it as the official Forum designation for SW.

A friend of mine took a party of guests up to Disney Trenches recently. He said that there was a School CCF pary there. At one point the officer turned to his party and said: 'You know it wasn't at all bad for the men stationed here. They had all their mates with them; they had loads of fresh air and all the food they could eat'. Perhaps he was living in Disneyworld, too.

[Mark Hone]

Oh dear, Hedley, that CCF officer definitely wasn't me! As I said in my earlier post and confirming Paul Reed's subsequent comment, visitors like and remember SW, for good or ill. It's a museum of a museum (very postmodern idea!) and in a way it would be a pity if it was changed too much from the musty, decaying appearance which people find atmospheric. My wife, who has developed an interest in the war from association with me (the poor woman hasn't much choice) much prefers it to 'In Flanders Fields' and as I said this is the majority view of the dozens of pupils who have visited both over the years on our tours. I do make a point of emphasising its ersatz nature in my commentary, and as I indicated this has provoked some valuable discussion about historical evidence etc. I just wish he wouldn't keep jacking up the price and digging new shell holes...

Did we ever come to a conclusion as to whether the Poperinge execution post and wall were genuine?

[Glenn]

I take many parties of young soldiers on battlefiled tours, two weeks ago I led 96 Ghurkas on such a trip. We are all entitled to our view points on SW and I also resent handing over 150 euros per coach load of soldiers but without such a site my trips to Ypres would be rather dull and probably many thousands of school children and soldiers woudn't perhaps go there at all unless of course there is something to look at.

I always contrast SW with Hill 60 for those who want to observe the difference. I'd be interested if Yorkshire Trench or any other site allows me to demonstrate trench warefare in such a realistic life like way.

At the end of the day, somebody is always going to be making something out of it, be it the coach companies or even the ferry operators!

Regards,

Glenn

[CROONAERT]

here's a photo of the Kasteelhof trenches taken in March ,this year...

Do we realise these trenches are fake - in that they were dug, I believe, by Englishman Mark Horner of Salient tours, when he operated out of Hooge Chateau in the early 1990s. I see nothing wrong with this, but reading between the lines some people appear to see them as 'original' - they are are certainly less so than those at the might malined Sanctuary Wood.

Well,yes. I was actually witness to them being dug. They are,though, dug on actual trench lines using period trench maps,etc (on a similar,smaller scale and less permanent lines to "Yorkshire Trench")and were part of a temporary archaelogical "experiment".

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

Just as a comparison to my previous (photo) posting, and to show the deteriation over 7 or 8 years, here's a Kasteelhof trench taken a couple of years after it's construction (photo taken circa.1995).

Dave.

[kerry]

There is nothing wrong, in principle, in folk making money. What we should as a Group alert others to, is, in effect, defacing a site by embellishment. This is what is happening at SW.

As to pumping money into the local economy, apart from the few staff employed there, does most of it less non-pay rinning costs, go into the owner's personal bank account?

The Belgian Government introduced legislation, and with sound reason, prohibiting farmers from filling in mine craters. That same rationale should obtain to other sites as well.

For my part, and I can't speak for others, I am excluding SW from future itineraries and group visits I conduct, focussing instead on hallowed ground that is not being exploited for personal profit.

Kerry

[john w.]

There are plenty of alternative areas and sites to visit....

John

[Guest Mark Horner]

here's a photo of the Kasteelhof trenches taken in March ,this year...

Do we realise these trenches are fake - in that they were dug, I believe, by Englishman Mark Horner of Salient tours, when he operated out of Hooge Chateau in the early 1990s. I see nothing wrong with this, but reading between the lines some people appear to see them as 'original' - they are are certainly less so than those at the might malined Sanctuary Wood.

Being very uncomfortable with the word "fake", I feel compelled to put the record straight on the origins of the trench at Hooge.

Ten years ago, with many others, I was unhappy that the Sanctuary Wood museum was the only place where one could see anything resembling a trench in the Salient. Although we all know the Salient has a thousand hidden corners and literally millions of stories to tell, it is a trench that the public wish to see. Indeed it is the one thing above all others that the public at large associate with the Great War.

Although SW was the only place where an original trench line still existed in the Salient, I saw that it was possibly valid to try to locate a trench line and to excavate what was there. Realising that the owners of the hotel at Hooge undoubtably had trenches on their land I approached them and together we set about locating the postion of a trench. Sketches and maps from the war clearly showed that a trench had been constructed leading into (and out of) one of the craters blown on their land. This trench, as marked on the maps, ran parallel to the Menin Road that was only twenty or thirty metres away. With the crater(s) and the road obviously still there it was relatively simple to pinpoint quite accurately the theoretical position of the trench. The logic being to dig down about 2 metres and then progress forward toward the expected position of the trench with the hope of intersecting it at 90 degrees.

After two days of work we located a wooden duckboard. Our initial high hopes were tempered by the knowledge that it could easily have been a section of walkway thown into a shell hole by a weary working party eighty years before. When it became clear that it was conected to another and then another etc, together with what appeared to be communication wire lying along side the duckboards (often held in place by clips of .303 ammunition), it was obvious that we had found the trench. Most of the duckboarding was left in place but some was removed to be preserved and put on display in the hotel. The part of the trench that had had the duckboards removed was then rebuilt using modern Hessian sandbags.

Six months of work followed, after which we held a press conference and opened the site to the public. Before the press conference we were asked by Peter Slosse of Ieper tourist board if we would mind having the authenticity of the trench verified by his experts. This we welcomed and it was subsequently done, a dozen or so eighty year old duckboards, with the structure and consistancy of wet cardboard being the most telling evidence.

The site was opened to the public to provide an alternative to Sanctuary Wood. We charged, I think, about 50 Belgian Francs person ( less than £1). This covered the cost of the work (We had purchased, and I had filled, 1000 sandbags) and was hopefully going to pay for future maintenance of the trench. Upon entering the site the visitors were given an information sheet explaining the history of the chateau and the fighting there and then followed a marked route around the grounds of the hotel. The route having

further descriptions at various points. Eventually they would arrive at the trench and they would read that it had recently been excavated and had been partly rebuilt to give an idea of what it would have looked like at the time. The original duckboards were clearly visible usually under a few inches of water. All of the artefacts that had been found remained the property of the owners of the hotel and I believe are still there on display today.

After another six months, with the winter upon us, the trench was already showing signs of decay. It was an interesting experiment, if nothing else, to show that original style hessian sandbags in the conditions of the Salient will only last a few months and could easily be torn by hand. Once weakened by the weather, the sandbags soon lost any supportive capability and soon the sides of the trench started to collapse ( and this was without shell fire!).

I was then faced with either rebuilding it myself ( I had already done all the original work) this time in the winter, or going the Vimy Ridge route and using concrete. The owners of the hotel, perhaps wisely, decided they didn't want a thousand concrete lumps for all eternity in what was effectively their garden and the project came to an end.

All in all it was a truly fascinating thing to do. I also believe it was valid and worthwhile experiment and little different in concept to the Yorkshire trench ten years later which I fully support and wish the best of luck.

I haven't been up to see the trench or had any contact with the owners of the Hooge hotel in some time and cannot answer for any claims they may be making about what remains there but I know them well and they are nice people. I do not believe they would make any false claims about it or would portray it as something it isn't.

For my part I am happy to prove the authenticity of what we did, and it certainly wasn't "fake".

Regards to all,

Mark Horner

[CROONAERT]

Thanks for the clarification, Mark.

In a previous post on this thread, I mentioned being witness to the events that you mention in your post, but was beginning to doubt myself about my belief on the "originality" of the trenches.You've confirmed for me that what I always thought is the truth, actually is.

Just for the record, as far as I know, the owners of the Kasteelhof aren't actually claiming anything about these trenches apart from what you and I have already stated.

Dave.

[Paul Reed]

Quite accept what you both say, but my point is - was there any trace of these trenches at ground level? I have a trench running through the site of my back garden, here on the Somme. I suppose I could dig it out and claim it "original".

As much as the SW trenches are "original", they were trenches still extant at the end of the war; when you came to dig at Hooge, I am presuming there was no trace of the original trenches, except below the surface?

As I said before I see nothing wrong with this, and I remember Mark that when you had them, you provided maps and photos to back up what you had found - I hope this is being done now so that people can visit these trenches in their true context.

[CROONAERT]

I remember Mark that when you had them, you provided maps and photos to back up what you had found - I hope this is being done now so that people can visit these trenches in their true context.

There are signboards around the woods,craters and trenches showing photos (incl.a couple of interesting "then and now" shots) and period trench map extracts.

Personally, I can't remember the area of the trenches before they were (re) dug.Maybe Mark can answer that bit. I presume, though, that there was no trace on the surface ,what with the post war landscaping activities of Baron de Vinck.

As to the trench in your back garden, Paul, well,yes, I suppose you could. When it all comes down to it, the "original" trenches in SW (even though they have been "preserved" since 1918) are a little like "Trigger's brush" in "Only Fools and Horses" ( "I've had the same brush for 20 years. It's had 15 heads and 8 handles" ). For this reason, I'd say that a re-dug trench that's on the original position is as "original" as a "preserved" trench. It's just that it's preservation was delayed

Dave.