RMS Leinster - was she carrying non-British troops

[Guest Pete Wood]

I believe there were about 500 lives lost when the RMS Leinster was sunk by a German U-Boat at the Kish Bank on 10th October, 1918.

The RMS Leinster was torpedoed twice by the German U-Boat UB-123. The ship, under the command of Captain William Birch, was carrying over 700 passengers and mail. The crew were mainly from Dun Laoghaire and Holyhead. There were 22 postal workers on board and only one survived.

I always thought is was only British troops aboard. But now I am hearing that there were troops from Australia and New Zealand aboard. Is this correct...??

I have also heard a whisper that the first WREN casualty may have been onboard the RMS Leinster.

Can anyone confirm the above, or tell me where I can learn more about this really interesting subject.....??

Also, if anyone can confirm the number of civilian casualties, I would be obliged.

Thanks

Pete

[shawbridge]

Hi,

A lot of the casualties from the Leinster were buried at Grangegorman Military Cemetery in Dublin.

There is one female casualty (that I can find) with a date of death of 10/10/18

here

& at least one Australian here

Shaw.

[kin47]

Hello Pete

CARR JOSEPHINE CLERK, WRNS G 4985

was lost in S.S. LEINSTER

don

[Guest Pete Wood]

How do you do it, Don...??

So does this make her the first WRNS casualty - or was she the first casualty by enemy fire....??

[Terry Denham]

RT

I think she was the first WRNS casualty due to enemy action.

The first WRNS casualty was Elizabeth Grant Elder 06.07.18 buried in Edinburgh (Rosebank) Cemetery.

[kin47]

Hello

Josephine Carr was the only W.R.N.S. to due from enemy action in WW I.

22 other W.R.N.S. died from illnesses in 1918 and 1919. Elder was the first W.R.N.S. death.

don

[oak]

Hello,

I have spent the last six years researching the sinking of the R.M.S. Leinster. The ship, owned by the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company, was one of four sisters on the Kingstown (now Dun Laoghaire) Co. Dublin to Holyhead route. The R.M.S. Connaught was requisitioned by the Admiralty in 1915 and used as a troopship between Southampton and Le Harve. She was torpedoed and sunk on 3 March 1917 with a loss of three crewmen which returning to Southampton. The Leinster was torpedoed on Thursday morning 10 October 1918 shortly after leaving Kingstown. Those on board included ships crew from Kingstown and Holyhead, postal sorters from Dublin Post Office (working in an onboard postal sorting room. The R.M.S. in the ship's title stood for Royal Mail Steamer - a prefix also held by the Titanic and Lusitania), military personnel from Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England, New Zealand, Australia, Canada and the U.S. There was no passenger list for the ship. The official death toll was 501, but I have approximately 530 names. The WRENS museum have confirmed that Josephine Carr (19) from Cork, who died on the Leinster was first ever WREN to be killed on active service, though not, as previously pointed out in this forum, the first to die while serving as a Wren.

Regards,

Oak

[oak]

Hello again!

In reply to the original query from "Racing Teapots": City of Dublin Steam Packet Company Managing Director Edward Watson recorded that there were 180 civilian passengers on the R.M.S. Leinster on 10 October 1918, of whom 115 were lost. As he did not record their names, it is unclear as to whether he classed people such as VADs (volunteer nurses) as civilians, neither is it know whether he classed off-duty City of Dublin Steam Packet Company (CDSPCo) employees who were travelling as passengers among the civilians. I have listed 187 people as civilians on my own database, of whom 134 died. I have a seperate listing for Post Office employees (who were of course civilians). 21 of the 22 on board were lost.

UB-123, the submarine that sank the Leinster was lost in the Northern Barrage Minefield (Laid by the Americans and the British between the east coast of Scotland and the west coast of Norway) on her way back to Germany. Her captain, Robert Ramm and all her crew were lost. Ramm was 27, his officers were 24 and 21 and the average age of the rest of the crew would have been between 19 and 20. Ramm was married and had two children. His wife Gerda lost her brother on another submarine a week later. The sinking of the Leinster and UB-123 shows how all sides are touched by tragedy in war.

Regards,

Oak

[Guest Pete Wood]

Oak, welcome to the forum.

Your research is incredible. I wonder if, by chance, you are from the 'Emerald Isle.' I had heard about a gentleman, there, who was doing a lot of amazing work on the RMS Leinster.

There was also a strong rumour that this gentleman (Philip Lecane) was writing a book....

If you are Philip Lecane, and you are indeed writing a book, please can you tell me when it is likely to be finished - and who is publishing it, so I can buy a copy. It sounds as though this will be the defintive work on a ship that, I believe, is just as interesting/appealing as the Lusitania and the Titanic.

If you are not Mr Lecane, have you thought of getting in touch with him.....??

[edergole]

There is a book 'Death in the Irish Sea- The sinking of the RMS Leinster' by Roy Stokes ISBN 1-898256-52-7

I don't know if you've already heard of it? You may find some on the usual book sites.

If you can't and really want a copy I may be persuaded to sell mine.

Joe

[edergole]

Equally, if you just want the names of those who died or confirmation on a particular individual let me know.

Joe

[Guest Pete Wood]

Thanks for the offer, Joe.

I do know about the book by Roy Stokes. But I understood that it is 'low' on casualty numbers. How many civilians does Stokes say died on the Leinster, please....??

This is why I am excited about Philip Lecane's research. He has, apparently, uncovered many 'new' casualties.

I find it incredible that, more than 85 years after the event, so much information can still be gleaned/uncovered.

Good news for a bookworm like me.

[oak]

Yes indeed, my name is Philip Lecane. As the name Philip wasn't available I registered as Oak, which is the literal meaning of my surname. (I mistakenly believed that I then had to sign all my emails with my registered name. ) Roy Stokes's book looks at the Leinster sinking in the context of the war at sea and raises issues such as Was the Leinster a legitimate military target? Was a radio message sent before by the Leinster before she sank? Did the authorities try to cover up the fact that there were military on the ship? etc. While these are all interesting topics, I set out to tell the human story of the tragedy. I started by trying to compile a passenger list, as none was available. My sources were CWGC records and contemporary newspapers. A number of casualties were discovered by relatives who contacted me when they learned of my research. (Indeed I didn't have Kerr from the Leinster Regiment, as discovered by Pete of Racing Teapots and outlined on this forum). My book "Torpedoed! The sinking of R.M.S. Leinster" will be published by Periscope Publishing Ltd., Cornwall and will be launched at a divers seminar in Holyhead on the weekend of 25/26 February 2005. The book tells the stories of the passengers, crew, postal workers and military on the ship, the story of Robert Ramm and the crew of UB-123 and the stories of some of those on the rescue ships. It has a listing of those who were on the Leinster that I believe to be 98% plus accurate. It tells the stories of a number of survivors in the years following the sinking. It brings the story up to date with the recovery of one of the Leinster's anchors and the first ever joint commemorative services in Dun Laoghaire and Holyhead in Oct 2003. I chaired the Dun Laoghaire committee. The commemorations involved the first ever participation of the RAF and Irish Navy in a commemoration. (It's all in the book!)

Regards, Philip

[Guest Pete Wood]

Aha. Welcome to the forum Philip.

I thought it was more than a coincidence that someone else (Oak) knew so much about the RMS Leinster.

I am so pleased to hear that the book is going to print, and so soon.

Do you know if it will be hardback/softback, and what the distribution will be? In other words, can I buy your book from any good book shop - or do I have to order it from somewhere....?? Details please.

Roll on February......

[edergole]

Looking forward to the book as well. History from the personal perspective always enjoyable.

Stokes says 115 Civilians killed.

Joe

[oak]

Pete and Joe,

Many thanks for your very kind comments. All of Periscope Publishing's books are in softcover. I have asked the publisher if he would give me a price on a hardbacked edition, all of which I would buy myself at author's discount. He has yet to come back to me on this. Apart from this I am unsure as to the size of demand for a hardbacked book versus a soft cover, so I am unsure as to how many to order.

I'm told that the softcover edition will retail at circa £14.99 plus p&p and will be available from the publisher and from myself. My address is 77 Windsor Drive, Monkstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland.

The hard backed edition will only be available from myself. I don't yet have a price on this but would be very happy to let you know nearer the time. The publisher said that it would be circa £30 plus p&p.

As you will appreciate, I didn't write the book to make money. (I could never hope to be paid for all the time and cost incurred). I am trying to do everything to I can to see that the 500 plus people who died on the R.M.S. Leinster are finally remembered by history.

Joe, Roy Stokes was also working off the figures compiled by City of Dublin Steam Packet Company M.D. Edward Watson. I know Roy. He very kindly gave me a copy of the Leinster's plans, as well as the accounts of two survivors of the sinking.

Kind regards,

Philip

[Guest Pete Wood]

Please put me down for a copy of the hardback - signed by the author, please

Best of luck with the launch of the book, and future sales.

[oak]

Thanks Pete,

It may be of interest that I have posted an "R.M.S. Leinster" related item on the forum discussion on the ship "Glenart Castle."

Regards,

Philip

[Jim Strawbridge]

Hello Philip, Welcome to the Forum. I was in touch with you earlier in the year about the Leinster and thank you for your help and advice. Put me down for a signed hard copy too if you go that route, Regards, Jim Strawbridge, Devon.

[oak]

Thanks Jim,

I'd seen your name on the forum and realised that it had to be THE Jim Strawbridge. The book's publisher lives next door to you -- in Cornwall.

Kind regards,

Philip

[oak]

Colleagues,

Just to let you know that the publisher sent me a mock-up the cover of my forthcoming "Leinster" book today. It looks very well. I'll keep you posted on developments.

Regards,

Philip

[CarylW]

I came across a letter in a 'Sea Breezes' December 1961 from a survivor of the Leinster tragedy, sent in by the assistant purser W J Sweeney, says he was "probably the last person to speak to Captain Birch", if anyone is interested - or you may already have seen it

Caryl

[mwsmith]

Him Phillip,

Let me also welcome you to the Forum. My wife's grandfather John Dolan was one of the postal workers who died on the Leinster. Her father, Dr Robert O'Dolan, remembers at the age of five hearinh his mother screaming when told of the tragedy. She died five years later leaving him an orphan.

I have read a great deal about the Leinster and would love a signed copy of your book. Please let me know how I can obtain one.

Keep up the good work. regards Mike Smith

[oak]

Many thanks Caryl and Mike,

Caryl, I hadn't come across Bill Sweeney's letter in "Sea Breezes" and would indeed be very grateful for the text of same.

Mike, I have sent you a personal message.

Kind regards,

Philip

[CarylW]

Many thanks Caryl and Mike,

Caryl, I hadn't come across Bill Sweeney's letter in "Sea Breezes" and would indeed be very grateful for the text of same.

Phillip

I'm sorry, I've only just noticed your reply.

Letter is headed:

"70 years of the Irish Mail"

I would like to express my appreciation to Mr A. C. Yeates for his excellent article on the Irish Mail. which appeared in your July issue:

it gave great pleasure to me and to some of the old hands to whom I sent copies.

The photograph of one of the quartette was undoubtedly the Leinster

The photograph was taken from a "blimp" of the Royal Naval Air Service, a couple of months before she was lost.

I was assistant purser on the morning of the tragedy and possibly the last person to speak to Capt. Birch.

His coolness on the occasion was in the best tradition of his noble calling.

There is one fact that may interest your readers. I quote from the "Annals of Dublin". "In 1897 the R.M.S Ulster, placed on the station last year, made the journey from Holyhead to Kingstown in the wonderful time of 2hrs 19 mins.

W J Sweeney

Greenwich

London S.E 10

Caryl