Possibly the saddest thing I've seen whilst collecting medals

[Geertsen]

I was browsing the auction site today and stumbled across possibly the saddest thing I've seen during my years collecting medals. I have heard so many times about how medals were melted down for their scrap metal value or just generally disrespected in days gone by (well, even the current Medal Yearbook makes reference to the value of a BWM being partially reliant on their silver value) but I have never seen anything which says so much as the picture attached here. It is just so brutal that all the silver medals in this group have obviously been snipped free and lost to the melting pot forever. 

 

I'm not suggesting this happened to this group recently (hopefully not anyway), but as a medal collector and lover of history it makes for difficult viewing!

[andy2014]

Very sad, as I have recently discovered several of my relatives from the great war, some who never returned from France or Gallipoli, it really would be great to find some if any medals which may still exist?

Now looking into how to start the search and how to concieveably go about it.

Andy

[dink_and_pip]

Perfect illustration of this sad practice. 

Andy. 

[Staffsyeoman]

Sad, but all too understandable, if disagreeable.  I spit at the memory of the Bunker-Hunt brothers and their selfish efforts to corner the silver market in the late 70s.  It broke up a partnership of dealers I knew; (this was when a War Medal was £2 and a Victory 50p or a pound...)  One wanted them preserved as medals; the other said "business is business" and was taking bagfuls to the melters as he could get £4-5 a go.  The devastation is incalculable.

[yellow]

It still occurs today. I cannot understand why anyone who can read a name on a rim of a medal, would spend the extra time to create three separate lots for a WW1 trio?

Silver prices do play a part but no one would split a chess set up, so why would you do it to medals from a selling point of view?

Brothers medals. I find the splitting of those equally frustrating. I do not collect to that....so I do not wish to buy the other brothers medals because he belonged to another unit. Sad, when the medals have been together for 100 years :-( I'll buy the other bothers ASC trio regardless.

[Coldstreamer]

Tell his story and he won't then be forgotten.  

 

Oddly I've had and seen more bwm than victory medals over the years to the coldstream guards   , I must look at my broken groups to see if more silver missing than others.  Certainly with officers I have several bwm yet not one victory ever 

[Geertsen]

Actually Coldstreamer, I would agree with you 100% on that! After I made the initial post it got me thinking, and I most say I think I easily see 20-30 single BWMs which match my interests for every individual Victory medal...!

 

I would certainly say the single BWMs I find massively outnumber single Victory medals...it's somehow contradictory to the practice of melting medals for the silver because you'd obviously expect to see an abundance of individual Victory medals..??

 

I can't work it out. 

[Geertsen]

Hi Yellow,

 

That's so true. I just don't understand that. I recently discovered an online seller who buys trios or doubles on eBay and then relists them straight back on there as singles the same week. Looking at their results of the practice (what I've seen) they end up making £10 at the very best for each set they split...so for a trio that's £3 a medal for so much effort and destruction.

 

I can't help getting really annoyed about the lack of respect, just to make tiny profits. Plus, I spend so much time looking for medals and plaques with the goal of reuniting groups and there are people like this splitting them after 100 years as you say. 

 

It just ain't cricket!

[yellow]

Silver investors often hoard. It costs money to melt and have the ingot assayed. That is why there are so many single BWMs around. Eventually they filter back from the bullion hoarders to the medal dealers.

Indeed. Splitting supposedly encourages more competition in regards the bidding. Its just cashing in on the sentimentality of collectors like ourselves, who wish to keep groups as is. A very low sales tactic in my opinion.

I do not have an infinite amount of cash to keep everything together. I often get outbid, but at least I tried.

[Geertsen]

Interesting, so does that mean silver investors have bought groups in the past and discarded the Victory medals and stars...which is why more silver medals have seemingly survived over bronze medals in groups...?

 

[Medaler]

I keep saying it. The answer is NEVER to bid on an obviously split group. By all means bid on singles, but NEVER if the seller has his other items listed. It may take an iron will, but if we all did that the practice would stop.

[dink_and_pip]

4 minutes ago, Medaler said:

I keep saying it. The answer is NEVER to bid on an obviously split group. By all means bid on singles, but NEVER if the seller has his other items listed. It may take an iron will, but if we all did that the practice would stop.

Then who would reunite the group? I am sure that some one would buy a single at a knock down price rather than the hundreds asked for groups. 

[Medaler]

Just now, dink_and_pip said:

Then who would reunite the group? I am sure that some one would buy a single at a knock down price rather than the hundreds asked for groups. 

 

The dealers would keep the groups united if it was not in their financial interests to split them. It has to be said mind that the worst offenders for splitting groups are almost certainly the families. There are 2 groups of "splitters" - Those who do it for gain and those that do it through ignorance.

 

Reuniting groups after they have already been split is fine, and I thought that my meaning on that was clear enough. Sorry if it wasn't.

[yellow]

That is correct Geertsen. The recipient or family took the medals to a pawn shop or jeweller to begin with. Sometimes the medals are sold direct out of the shop, other times to a bullion dealer who passes them onto warehouse hoarders. Who 'sometimes' make a profit. It is when this release happens that large numbers of single BWMs are to be found listed by medal dealers.

The professional of the hobby actually perform a service to ensure as little as possible is trashed or melted.

I understand your point Medaler. That we must not create a market. Sadly competition is so high that if you don't buy it....someone else will. In the case of families I have from experience discovered many do not even know the medals are named on the rims. Thus, splitting can be accidental.

Never lose hope in finding a WW1 single :-) 1 in 7 millions odds can be beaten.

[Geertsen]

It's just something I had never really thought of in such detail until now!

 

So does the bullion value of the metal in a BWM come anywhere near the market value of a BWM to a medal collector?...I can't imagine there is £30 of silver in there (the minimum you seem to have to pay for a BWM single). 

[yellow]

There is one ounce of silver in a BWM. Closing price on Friday was 14.94 pounds for one ounce. Earlier this week the price was 18 pounds. 18 pounds is the cheapest you can purchase a BWM for from a professional dealer for today.

'Hoarders' do not always make a profit, some in the past have lost fortunes.

The danger for BWMs come when the price per ounce, tops 18 pounds. Some dealers think ok, I have all these Corps and RA medals hanging around I'll cash in.  Thank fully this is not the majority of dealers, most appreciate the history...so instead raise the price to top the scrap price.

Still a lot does escape......you may of seen a few BWMs for sale in Eastern Europe? We obviously now have Eastern European bullion dealers buying the UK.

[alastaircox]

Not anymore, they scrap at around £8. The collecting value has by far surpassed the melt value.

[yellow]

10 minutes ago, alastaircox said:

Not anymore, they scrap at around £8. The collecting value has by far surpassed the melt value.

More like a price a local jeweller or a trash for cash shop would pay. I highly recommend that anyone interested in silver and gold values install a gold/silver price app on their phone to ensure they aren't being fleeced.

8 - 14 pounds sounds a little greedy in my opinion.

[Medaler]

45 minutes ago, yellow said:

That is correct Geertsen. The recipient or family took the medals to a pawn shop or jeweller to begin with. Sometimes the medals are sold direct out of the shop, other times to a bullion dealer who passes them onto warehouse hoarders. Who 'sometimes' make a profit. It is when this release happens that large numbers of single BWMs are to be found listed by medal dealers.

The professional of the hobby actually perform a service to ensure as little as possible is trashed or melted.

I understand your point Medaler. That we must not create a market. Sadly competition is so high that if you don't buy it....someone else will. In the case of families I have from experience discovered many do not even know the medals are named on the rims. Thus, splitting can be accidental.

Never lose hope in finding a WW1 single :-) 1 in 7 millions odds can be beaten.

 

I never lose hope of reuniting. I have managed to do it a couple of times now. I have also messaged many families on Ebay in my time to get them to relist split groups together. The response I have had to those requests have almost universally resulted in success.

[alastaircox]

Today's price is £12, after the Brexit surge in bullion. Still far lower than the collectors value thankfully. 

[Terry_Reeves]

It is not always the case that groups have been split because of the bullion value. Sometimes groups were split amongst family members. That said I have a MM group with a 1914 star and bar,  victory medal and C de G to a RE despatch rider who was also MID.  I bought it in the 1980s and suspect that the BWM  may well have disappeared into the melting pot.

 

TR

[Kitchener's Bugle]

It is a disgrace when a medal is melted down just for the metal value. Just because a man was in the ASC does not mean that his service was not of value and that there might not be an interesting story there.......or even any story!. 

I don't care if I was broke, I would never ever participate. 

[charlie962]

I've known medals split because the Star had  a different service number and unit from the BWM/VM so assumed to be different people! Nowdays with easy access to MICs hopefuly this doesn't happen. But BWM and VM should always have identical naming?

[james_harvey]

Not always, may have qualified for Bwm in Royal Navy or mercantile marine and later reinlisted in army

 

in case mn may later enlist in RN

[stiletto_33853]

Grandfathers medals on my fathers side, 2nd Life Guards. My grandmother became fond of the drink in her later life and sold the BWM & LSGC to a scrap merchant for her next drink or two.

 

Andy