Over Age Soldier

[Mangoman]

One of my family was 49 y.o.a when posted to France & Flanders in November 1915 as a signaller with his regiment. Being so old how could he have been accepted for active service abroad?

[BereniceUK]

Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

"Intimation has been received of the death in France [on 29.12.1916], from injury to the spine, of Pte. James Hunter (51), Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, whose home was 83, Anderton-street, Chorley. Though well over the military age, Hunter enlisted over two years ago, and had been at the front for 14 months."

[researchingreg]

Mangoman

I have a Great Great Uncle who joined up at the age of 47 as he was a railway employee and they needed him in the RE for the light railways they supplied the trenches with in France. Perhaps your man had a special skill.

 

See this post: 

 

[Mangoman]

My understanding that the maximum age for acceptance intoi the infantry was 41. So how come my great uncle was aceepted for active service?

[ss002d6252]

There were various changes to the limits (including for special skill sets) and once a man was enlisted he'd be retained until the army decided otherwise.

How old was he when he enlisted ?

Craig

[ss002d6252]

I should add that a man could easily give a lower age to the army without proof usually being requested.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

In Aug/Sep 14 the New Army was advertising for men to 35, ex-soldiers to 45, ex-NCO's to 45 (in some cases to 50).

Craig

[fullscott]

9 hours ago, Mangoman said:

One of my family was 49 y.o.a when posted to France & Flanders in November 1915 as a signaller with his regiment. Being so old how could he have been accepted for active service abroad?

From my reading of the WW1 Service Records (ie I know nothing, just picking up clues & information!), most of the older men appear to have come from employment by the Post Office (telegraphy) or the Railways (engineering). Your man was a signaller - vital for communications. 

 

Experience comes with age

 

Jane

[BereniceUK]

Frederick Selous, the big-game hunter, enlisted at the age of c.63, and was killed in action.

[Mangoman]

9 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

There were various changes to the limits (including for special skill sets) and once a man was enlisted he'd be retained until the army decided otherwise.

How old was he when he enlisted ?

Craig

He had previously served as Signaller at his regimental HQ and was re-engaged in April 1914 prior to the outbreak of WW1 when he was 47 y.o.a.

[researchingreg]

Mangoman

I have found another great great uncle Pte Stephen Dennett 12851 born in Romesy, Hampshire in 1865, joined the Hampshire Regiment 19 December 1914 (aged 49), then transferred to the Royal Defence Corps 19 April 1916 leaving the Army before the wars end on 18 September 1918 (aged 53) discharged as unfit for service.

However he did have previous military service:

He served for 12 Years in the Scottish Rifles (which according to Wikipedia is the 2nd Bn Cameronians) from 1883 to 25 Feb 1895. He then re-joined the Army attesting on 9 May 1900 in the Royal Rifles Reserve Regiment, which I think were based in Parkhurst Isle of Wight He served until 8 May 1901 in the Rank of L/Cpl service number 1727.

[seaJane]

Arthur Edward Kelsey, Temporary Captain, RAMC (formerly Staff Surgeon, RN) was 52 when he went down with the GLENART CASTLE.

[Mangoman]

Many thanks for all your contributions but am reallky trying to understand how my great uncle could have been accepted into the Infantry at the age of 47 y.o.a when the maximumj age permitted was 41 y.o.a. I thought that he may have volunteered his services Under the Group Scheme but this was brought in just one month before he left for France & Flanders. Therefore I have my doubts that he would have had sufficient training in just one month to enable him to be posted to that theatre of war so am at a lossas  to think how he was accepted into the Army at such a releatively old age?

[Magnumbellum]

The matter of WW1 over-age soldiers is the counterpart or mirror image of the matter of under-age soldiers.

 

Both derived from a number of factors:

 

Although registration of births has been compulsory, but free of charge, since 1837, there has never been a requirement for the person registering a birth to acquire a copy of the registration entry - a birth certificate - for which a charge has always been made. Poor and/or semi-literate people could not afford and/or had no motive for paying for a certificate, which was never needed for ordinary living and could very easily be lost or destroyed.

 

This meant that recruitment personnel had no means of formal verification of the age of applicants, and age was ordinarily accepted on the basis of trust.

 

Furthermore, the pressure on recruitment was such that there is anecdotal evidence, in the case of some recruiters, of their deliberately turning a blind eye, or even saying to a youngster, "take a walk round the block, and when you come back, you'll be a bit older, won't you?", or to someone older, "come back tomorrow morning, and I am sure you"ll be feeling much younger".

 

Be that as  it may, there is clear evidence of both under-age boys and over-age men being recruited, and ending up in France, not necessarily in the Front line. I recall hearing from a man in the RE engaged in road building/repairing in France who was certain that one of their number was at least 60, recruited on the basis of giving a false age, accepted without question, even though any heavy work had to be covered by his mates. That was life.

 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Mangoman said:

Many thanks for all your contributions but am reallky trying to understand how my great uncle could have been accepted into the Infantry at the age of 47 y.o.a when the maximumj age permitted was 41 y.o.a. I thought that he may have volunteered his services Under the Group Scheme but this was brought in just one month before he left for France & Flanders. Therefore I have my doubts that he would have had sufficient training in just one month to enable him to be posted to that theatre of war so am at a lossas  to think how he was accepted into the Army at such a releatively old age?

You say in post #10 he had re-engaged April 14 (presumably as a territorial) - as a continuing enlistment the T.F. Regulations 1908 allowed service up to age 40 or 45 with permission. Either he served as a Sergeant (for which standard retirement age was 50) or it appears that there's something up with the age he provided to the army.

 

Craig
 

[Mangoman]

Many thanks to all who contributed to my question about my relative who apparently volunteered at the age of 47 y.o.a, and from what has been said I working on the basis that as he was a telegraphist in civilian life, and a signaller in the pre-War Territorial Force, then his skills would have been in demand by the military and hence the reason he was accepted for service despite being over age.

[chwiliwr]

The Cambrian News of 26 July 1918 reported on the Merioneth Rural Tribunal in which a number of men in their late forties appealed against being called up. Among them was Charles Jones, a carpenter, "51 in September" who was granted exemption until 1st January. A 48 yr old and two 49 yr olds, farm labourers or timber workers, were exempted until 1st November. However a 44 year old conscientious objector was not granted exemption. None of them according to the report objected on account of their age. 

[ss002d6252]

3 hours ago, Mangoman said:

Many thanks to all who contributed to my question about my relative who apparently volunteered at the age of 47 y.o.a, and from what has been said I working on the basis that as he was a telegraphist in civilian life, and a signaller in the pre-War Territorial Force, then his skills would have been in demand by the military and hence the reason he was accepted for service despite being over age.

If he had re-engaged for a new term of servive in April 14 (post #10 - did you mean Aug 14 ?) then there was something up with the age he gave the Territorial Force as they'd not have accepted him as a serving soldier as he was over-age for re-enlistment  In this case there was no need for him to volunteer at the outbreak of war as he was already a serving soldier.

Craig

[butler]

Another example of an overage soldier is Pte 2533 Clement Frampton who enlisted into 8 Bn Hampshire Regiment 19.10.15 at the age of 62 with no previous military service. He was found on his initial medical as fit but was discharged as no longer fit 11.8.16 without serving overseas