Retired Dave Posted 25 June , 2016 Share Posted 25 June , 2016 Hello All, I have my grandfather's medals (just Mutt and Jeff) and they have been mounted in a small display case since my grandmother received them in 1919 - he was KIA 08/10/1918. They need remounting after the case glass was broken and I have that in hand. But before I finally remount them again I would like to wear them (right side of course) in a small commemoration on the centenary (obviously on 8th October 2018), near where he fell in the 2nd Battle of Cambrai . I have obtained new ribbons to be used for that purpose. The original ribbons will be used in the remounted case of course. Please can anyone advise me of the correct length of ribbon when worn - and apart from wearing on the right side, if any other protocol should be observed. Thanks in anticipation Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 25 June , 2016 Share Posted 25 June , 2016 Dear Dave, The attached Mutt and Jeff (plus a GSM GVR with MiD) will give you a good idea. In this case, the British War Medal ribbon is 2" (5 cm) long... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 25 June , 2016 Share Posted 25 June , 2016 The official answer (for the army) seems to be here........The Navy of course "are another country, they do things differently there" https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/185990/response/459552/attach/4/ADR Part 13 Wearing of Decorations etc.pdf Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 June , 2016 Share Posted 25 June , 2016 2 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear Dave, The attached Mutt and Jeff (plus a GSM GVR with MiD) will give you a good idea. In this case, the British War Medal ribbon is 2" (5 cm) long... Kindest regards, Kim. 3 hours ago, Retired Dave said: I have my grandfather's medals .... The original ribbons will be used in the remounted case of course. Please can anyone advise me of the correct length of ribbon when worn... Kim, for Dave also, is that 2 inch correct for the immediate post gw period? Medaller gives current regulations but what was right for when these were issued in 1920 or so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 25 June , 2016 Share Posted 25 June , 2016 Good point Trajan! I don't think the measurements have changed, but I stand to be corrected on that. I do love that the metric equivalent lengths go to 3 decimal places - talk about military precision! The regulations do apply to "now" - and the OP talks about wearing them "now" - so they I suppose that those instructions are technically correct. Do civilian descendants need to be so accurate? - I think that, out of respect, they probably do, because they are putting them on public display when they are being worn. Technically I suppose that wearing them at the wrong length could be seen as disrespectful to the issuing authority, whose regulations on how they should be worn now are being flouted. A bit like hanging the Union flag upside down. Do they need to be accurate to 3 decimal places? - Almost certainly not! Now I have opened a couple of cans of worms, I will admit that I prefer to see them at the navy length - 4". To me they just look better at 4". I don't get too hung up on ribbon lengths, but there are no doubt other people who do. Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Dave Posted 25 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2016 Thank you for your help everyone. Measuring the medals I guess the ribbon for the British War Medal needs to be 5cm ( as info from Kimberley John Lindsay) and the medal which appears to be 4.5cm makes the overall 9.5cm of the current regs as in Medaler's pdf. I will make the medals up with these measurements and ensuring that the Victory Medal reaches the 9.5cm to match Interestingly - the original ribbons were cropped a little to arrange them in the small display, but it is just possible at one edge to measure the original length of the ribbon on the British War Medal as 5.5cm Thank you all again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 25 June , 2016 Share Posted 25 June , 2016 Dear Dave, I was pleased to have hopefully been of some help. The medal group (awarded to an IARO Lieutenant) I used to illustrate the whys and wherefores of mounting First War pair medals, was modelled on a similar contemporary group. Having said that, Mike and Trajan had their genuine doubts (the former backed by official rules), and indeed, I have other groups in my collection which have different measurements. Nonetheless, if you have your grandfather's medals mounted like those of the IARO, they will look good on the day. You may, en passant, be interested to see my own grandfather's medals - which have different measurements: but that was the way that particular Australian medallist made them up for wearing (which my grandfather did, on Anzac Day)... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 25 June , 2016 Share Posted 25 June , 2016 Well I enjoyed that glimpse of your grandfathers medals Kim - A VERY nice group!! Are they longer or shorter than the regs state? I am guessing longer. If I am right with that guess, then that helps to illustrate my point about how they "look", because that MC is in a visually pleasing proportion of medal to ribbon. I would also wish "Retired Dave" all the best with the mounting project and his plans to wear them on that special day. Glad I was able to help. I hope getting the "V" even on the VM doesn't cause you any problems - I always find that bit a real challenge! Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 25 June , 2016 Share Posted 25 June , 2016 Dear Mike, Thank you for your kind words. Yes, grandfather had a nice group (I don't know how the illustration became upended!)... I had to laugh about getting the "V" right on the Victory ribbon: here again I have several variations! For your interest, I attach another 'different' example (in this case, an Indian Army cantonments officer)... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Dave Posted 26 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2016 Hi Kim and Mike - thanks for your further help, illustrations and good wishes. The small case that the medals were mounted in, until the breaking of the glass, appears at first sight to be a darkish wood. It is fact plaster of Paris painted with a dark brown wash that gives a good grain effect. My first thought after the glass accident and when the medals passed to me on my mother's passing, was to get a new, modern, posh replacement. I quickly came to my senses and the realisation brought tears to my eyes. If that case had been good enough for my grandmother, it was much more than good enough for me. My lovely Gran was a widow for 64 years and my Mum was born 7 months after his death - he had only been back in France (wounded twice) 2 weeks when he was killed. Obviously he never knew he had a daughter and would be amazed that I am his grandson. Thanks again all. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Dave Posted 26 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 26 June , 2016 Hi All, meant to attach a photo of the display case - I can only plead old age!! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 26 June , 2016 Share Posted 26 June , 2016 Hi Dave, There are alternatives around for framing. I used to do it professionally at one time and I'm sure nobody will mind me mentioning that on here because I don't do it now. The only reason I mention it is that there are alternatives that will allow you access to the medals - so you don't have to seal them in. There are even alternatives to frame them on a "mounted for wear" pin bar, so they could be accessed and worn again. I am not saying chuck the old frame away! - but there are perhaps alternatives you may not have considered. Most modern framers will tell you that you need a "box frame" - but you don't. I developed a way of doing it without. The other thought I have is that a new frame gives you the chance to mount other things with the medals if they have survived. That is a good way of keeping everything together for posterity. Nothing wrong with the frame you have mind - and it is part of the history of the family and the medals. Those little scuffs to the plaster could be quite easily restored. If you want any help and guidance on framing and mounting just chuck me a PM with your email address. Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 26 June , 2016 Share Posted 26 June , 2016 Dear Dave, Thanks for the touching frame saga. It was a pleasure to have tried to help in a small way. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Dave Posted 29 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2016 Thanks again both - very helpful and cause for thought about the way forward. My family are not great grave visitors, even those fairly near by, so it was only 4 years ago that I got to my grandfather's grave near Cambrai. As I stood there thinking of what his death had meant for my Gran, it struck me that I was old enough to be his grandfather, if you get my meaning. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Dave Posted 15 November , 2016 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2016 Hello All, My plans to wear these medals (just in 2018) are taking shape and at the centenary I mentioned in the OP. It struck me that I might also in 2018 seek the privilege of marching at the cenotaph parade in London with those from his regiment. I am considering that. If I was granted leave to do so It struck me that I should also just this once wear my father's WW2 medals. I believe that this is allowed, but one set above the other. Please can anyone tell me the correct protocol for doing so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 16 November , 2016 Share Posted 16 November , 2016 Hello Dave When you apply for permission to march at the Cenotaph, I suggest that you state your intentions regarding both sets of medals and ask if that would be acceptable, and if there are any special rules about them, in addition to wearing them on the right. That way, you will be in the clear, and will also have a response to anyone marching with you who expresses a different view. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Dave Posted 16 November , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2016 Thanks Ron - that sounds like good advice. I have a two space brooch for full sized medals which I had intended to use for swing mounting my grandfather's Mutt & Jeff pair but on lining them up I see that the two ribbons are, side by side, are much too wide for the slot. Is one supposed to overlap the medals even for just two medals?? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trench whistle Posted 16 November , 2016 Share Posted 16 November , 2016 You will notice that the victory ribbon is wider than the war medal. Modern brooch bars are made to accept two standard width ribbons so are not wide enough for a wwi pair as you have observed. In order to mount them correctly you will need to find a period bar that allows for the extra width. Contact a few medal dealers and explain what you need they should be able to supply an older bar for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Dave Posted 16 November , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2016 Hi trench whistle - thanks for that I will give it a go. The item I have is a Firmin made one and is not even wide enough to take my father's WW2 pair without a slight overlap. I am keen to swing mount the Mutt & Jeff as that is how they would have been mounted a century ago. These medals have never been worn as he was KIA so this will be the only time they are likely to be worn. Then they will be displayed in the original case as discussed with Kim and Mike further up the thread. Thanks again all for your help. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Thompson Posted 19 November , 2016 Share Posted 19 November , 2016 To help me understand about wearing the medals on the right hand side, ie wearing your dads or granddads, do you keep the medals in the same order as on the left or do you reverse them round. Cheers Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 19 November , 2016 Share Posted 19 November , 2016 Dear Roger No, the medal group does not change. It is best to affix the medals (in your case, on the right side) beforehand, by laying your jacket on a bed. Pin, for example, a 15 Trio on, so that the star is at the (right) shoulder, and the Victory medal is at the (right) lapel. The medal group must be parallel to the ground, when standing and jacket buttoned up. If you have medals of your own, these are, of course, worn at the left side. Just reading this through, makes me realise that a picture would be a far better way of describing the procedure. This shows myself, with way off-topic Australian Defence Medal and unofficial CMF medal on the left, and off-topic MC, MiD and WWII medals, Greek War medal and unofficial 2/4 Aust Inf Bn medal (2AIF) to my late father, on the right side... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Thompson Posted 20 November , 2016 Share Posted 20 November , 2016 Thanks Kim, I understand it now, I was never in the forces, they are my dads who was in the Royal Navy in WW2. Cheers Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 20 November , 2016 Share Posted 20 November , 2016 Dear Roger, Fine. Glad to have been of some assistance (as I am sure applies to the other GWFs who contributed). Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Dave Posted 21 November , 2016 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2016 Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, as Kim says you learn something with every comment. Having started out to look at DIY mounting the medals in question of the OP, I found that Windsor Medals (they have website) live in the same village just around the corner from me. So I will be getting them mounted there by a professional. I will then after I have worn them in 2018 remount in the old frame with the old ribbons. It is always an issue where these medals will go when I am gone. My children would look after them I know, but they would probably just be in a draw and only seen now and then. He was a Manchester lad and one thought I have is to see if the northern Iimperial War Museum would be interested in having them together with the paperwork and letters received by grandmother on his death a century ago. Thanks again all. KInd regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 21 November , 2016 Share Posted 21 November , 2016 (edited) Dear Dave, Yes, one like to think of these things behind Museum Glass for all the World to see. However, the fact is that museums have a plethora of such objects, and your family medals would more than likely end up in a museum drawer - rather than in a drawer within your own family! In other words, I would suggest the latter course, of leaving the family medals with your children: family to family (rather than family to institution)! Take my own case, for example. After a terrific and delicate business lasting years, I now hold the grandfatherly MC, ED group medals. I already had my father's MC, MiD group of medals (Dad had mother send them to me in Germany, realising that I was more interested that my older brother), and fairly recently was myself awarded a modest but valued medal from the Australian Government, for voluntary military service in the 60s. Part of the problem was, that I am a younger son, as was my father. Suffice to say that the three groups are now together (the obviously quite valuable father and son MC groups in a bank vault: not an ideal spot, admittedly), and that I have an efficient and enthusiastic son who understands the situation. One could go on and on... Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 21 November , 2016 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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