Stoker Alexander ENGLISH - 306560

[Shiny]

Hi All,

I have just discovered a relative I didn't know about but am unsure as to what has happened to him.

His details are listed on here: http://www.tynemouthworldwarone.org/database.html, he is Stoker Alexander English, service number 306560, date of birth 27/4/1882.

I think it says he was on HMS Natal, invalided in 1914 and transferred to the RFR (B/10935). It also says his ship at death was still HMS Natal but that he died on 4/8/18 in Morpeth Asylum.

Could it mean he was put in an Asylum suffering from shell shock and some how died?

I did find a navy record for him on Ancestry listing all his ships but I don't think I'm allowed to share that on here (am I?)

I don't think he's listed on the CWGC either.

Can anyone make sense of any of this or explain it?

Thanks for the help,

Michael

[horatio2]

HMS NATAL blew up in 1915 so he could not have been serving in her when he died in 1918. Furthermore he only qualified for a British War Medal so he never served in any operational ship in WW1.

You can post his record here for others to study for you.

[BereniceUK]

Not listed in this WW1 RN casualty list either.

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCasAlpha1914-18E.htm

[Shiny]

Hi All,

Thanks for the comments so far. I'm uploading the record I found but I'm not sure if it will be readable because of the resizing.

Michael

[seaJane]

I can't see where it says he died?

I can see that he was discharged ashore medically unfit 14 October 1914...

[horatio2]

He was discharged 'invalided' on 5 March 1914 and joined the Royal Fleet Reserve (RFR) for just over one month (12 September to 14 October 1914) before being discharged 'Shore' as medically unfit. That month meant he qualified (just) for the British War Medal. He did not serve again in WW1. The association of HMS Natal with his death is a red herring.

A glorious record of gaining and losing good conduct badges and a poor disciplinary record, so no great loss to the RN.

[Shiny]

He was discharged 'invalided' on 5 March 1914 and joined the Royal Fleet Reserve (RFR) for just over one month (12 September to 14 October 1914) before being discharged 'Shore' as medically unfit. That month meant he qualified (just) for the British War Medal. He did not serve again in WW1. The association of HMS Natal with his death is a red herring.

A glorious record of gaining and losing good conduct badges and a poor disciplinary record, so no great loss to the RN.

Thanks for the help again,

Horatio2, I can't see what it is you are reading to say he's gaining and losing good conduct stripes, which lines are they? I'm not doubting you in the slightest, I just don't know what I'm looking at.

SeaJane, the bit saying he died came from the Tynemouth WW1 Commemoration Project's database, I'm going to try and attach a pdf version of his record that they have created, that may help / confuse things more.

I really appreciate the help,

Michael

Alexander English.pdf

[Shiny]

Hi All,

 

I'm just wondering if the attachments I have added to this are still there? I can't see them now but I do sometimes have problems with photos etc at work.

 

Michael

[seaJane]

I can't see them either and I could before: but it may be one of those things that will take a while for the indexing to go through.

 

sJ

[Shiny]

@seaJane The pdf I attached has reappeared, could you have a quick look and see if it makes any sense to you please?

 

@rcswales Could you explain which bit on the record indicates the good conduct badges being awarded and removed please?

 

Of course I would really appreciate any feedback from anyone who has time to have a look at this for me. I've never really looked at RN records and don't know anything about how they operated during WW1.

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Michael

[horatio2]

In the 'Badges' (i.e. Good Conduct Badges) column each entry should be read as follows:-

Above the line, G = GCB Granted, D = GCB Deprived, R = GCB Restored, with date.

Below the line, number of GCBs held after the action above the line.

[Shiny]

@horatio2 I can see what you meant now, thanks a lot. When you say he was entitled to the British war medal, does that mean you have found an MIC for him or are you just working off the dates and your own knowledge?

 

Now I'm looking at his record closer I can see he joined up in 1904 and served on various ships until going to Pembroke II in December 1914 invalided. He appears to have been there between 17 Sep 1914 and 14 Oct 1914 when he was marked as "shore medically unfit".

 

As I said earlier I know nothing about the navy, is he likely to have seen any action anywhere during his pre WW1 service?

 

I'm thinking something has happened on board which has given him PTSD, he's been discharged to Morpeth Asylum where he's live for a few years before dying in 1918. I could be totally wrong but that was my theory. Can anyone help me prove or disprove that?

 

He also seems to be back and forward to Pembroke II a lot as well, I'm guessing that is some sort of training establishment / holding unit between ships is that right?

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Michael

[seaJane]

Pembroke II was an accounting base / shore establishment, yes.

 

I hate to say it but the other reason for ending up in a lunatic asylum could be delirium tremens resulting from alcoholism (which might explain his ups and downs in good conduct) or GPI (general paralysis of the insane) which can accompany tertiary syphilis. The death certificate would probably inform on this.

 

sJ

[Shiny]

Thanks very much, that would make sense, probably more than shell shock.

 

It would also fit with him being buried in an unmarked communial grave rather than a CWGC one.

 

I'll have to keep digging, his story has to be there somewhere. 

 

Michael 

[seaJane]

He was discharged so early in the war - barely 6 weeks after it began, and had been ashore for most of it - that I hardly think he would have been in a situation to develop shellshock.  CWGC inclusion would depend on whether he was held to have developed the condition he died of during his short wartime period of service.

 

[Shiny]

Thanks again, I think your first theory is probably the correct one.

 

I'll have to see if I can find a certificate or the asylum records.

 

Michael

[Shiny]

Hi All,

 

I'm still digging at this record. Based on some information I found I now believe that Alexander was involved in a fire at some point and that there is more to his story than first meets the eye.

 

I'm looking for a bit of help deciphering his record because I just can't read it.

 

In this cropped attachment and anyone tell me the rank in the 4th column? He seems to have been Stoker class 2, then stoker then this rank which I'm thinking is stoker class 1 could that be right?

 

His good conduct badges are being given and taken away a lot but the entry 3rd from the bottom of that column seems to be G again rather than another R and then the number 2 appears. Does that mean he was given a second good conduct badge which was taken off him then given back, so he had 2 at the end of his career.

 

 

[Shiny]

The final bit for now is about a gap in his service. He seems to have gone to Pembroke II on promotion to leading stoker on 15 Feb 13 but then if I am reading the record right the next entry is on the 18th of September 13 Every other date on the record follows on from the previous entry, the only exception being the 5 days in the cells, so what has happened here?

 

Have I read the writing correctly? If this was 7 months in cells surely he would have lost at least a rank but he hasn't. Could it have been a course or something like that in which case why isn't it recorded.

 

Even more interesting for me is the next line is where he is invalided, what has happened?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Michael

[horatio2]

Drafted to DIAMOND as a stoker on 7 Sep 12; advanced to acting leading stoker in DIAMOND 8 Sep 12 to 14 Feb 13; drafted to PEMBROKE as acting leading stoker 15 Feb 13; confirmed (substantive) leading stoker in PEMBROKE 18 Sep 13 to 23 Sep 13; drafted to NATAL as leading stoker 24 Sep 13; drafted back to PEMBROKE 29 Dec 13; discharged invalided 5 Mar 14.

[Shiny]

Thanks a lot @horatio2 so does that mean that there isn't actually a gap in his service, it's just that the date hasn't been filled in?

 

By drafted do you mean that he was told to report to a particular ship or that he was actually there?

 

Thanks again,

 

Michael

[horatio2]

No "gap in service". As with all RN records, the fact that he is shown as drafted to a ship on a particular date does not imply that he was actually there, merely that he was 'borne on the books' of that ship from that date. There are numerous reasons for him not being physically present: on leave; on a course of training; sick on shore; etc., etc.)

 

W.r.t. your question about GCBs: the granting (G) of his second GCB (1912) followed the restoration of his first GCB and was, in short order, followed by its deprivation (D), leaving him with just one GCB on his arm until it was restored (R) again. Simples!

[Shiny]

Thanks for your help again @horatio2, it may be simples to you but it's an absolute mystery to a land lubber like me so I really appreciate the help.

 

As I say I'm convinced there is more to his story than meets the eye. I know there was a fire at some point in his service, I'm just wondering if that is what started the drinking (if that's why the badges were taken away) and if so how I can find out more.

 

Michael

[Shiny]

Hi All,

 

I'm still digging into this story and now, thanks to the 100 year rule have finally seen Alexander's asylum medical file and it seems we were all right in one way or another.

 

It says he was admitted on the 28th Aug 1917 as a service patient after becoming so violent in a billard hall he had to be strapped down. It says the cause of the attack was an explosion on board ship although sadly it doesn't say which ship or when.

 

The three pages make very sad reading describing his decline from a short, well developed muscular man to a feeble, bed ridden man who eventually dies of GP.

 

For me it raises a couple of questions:

• He was medically discharged in Oct 1914 as being unfit so if he had been out of the Navy for 2 years, why was he admitted (and recorded in the death register) as a service patient?
• If the GP was as a result of untreated syphilus why does it say the cause was an explosion on board ship?

His first good conduct badge was taken away in Jun 1907 so assuming the explosion has happened sometime around then, his postings would mean it could have happened on:

 

HMS Antrim (he was on her between Jul 1905 and Sep 1906),

HMS Pembroke 2 (he was there between Sept 1906 and Apr 1907) or

HMS Edgar (he was on her between April and May 1907)

 

Could he have started drinking as a result of this explosion and that's why he started to lose the GCB's?

Could the GP be total coincidence, or maybe he caught syphilis while drunk and that's made PTSD symptoms worse?

 

Where do I go from here?

Are the ship's logs for those ships at the NA (I couldn't see them) so I can look for record of an explosion?

 

Any help would as always be very gratefully received.

 

Michael