74 Squadron The Beginnings of 74 Squadron, RAF.

[BruceLeylandJones]

For some years now, I've been working on a project to build all examples of aircraft flown by 74 Squadron, RAF, known as the Tigers or sometimes Trinidad.

There is a lot of information out there, especially since 1939.

There is some from between the wars, but very little about the formation of the squadron, other than it came from a training squadron, (TS).

I then acquired a copy of "RAF Squadrons", by Wing Commander CJ Jefford, MBE RAF. Within this useful tome, it appears that the embryo of the Tigers lay in No.2 TS, RFC, dated 1917.

With that information, I discovered this Forum and a thread, (which I am currently unable to find), which stated quite clearly that No.1 TS was responsible for 74. Of particular interest to me was a list of aircraft flown by No.2 and I was hoping for the following;

1 - Some confirmation as to the original TS for 74 Squadron, with references if possible.

2 - Some information on aircraft types and, if at all possible, serial numbers and such like.

Thanking you in anticipation,

Bruce.

[nieuport11]

The Squadron formed at Northolt on 1st July (where 2TS were based) and moved to London Colney as part of 18 Wing on 10th July

They trained with Avro, Sopwith Scout and SE5a machines

Their SE5a service machines were handed over on 20.2.18

1TS were at Beaulieu

I will pm you with a list of aircraft

[David Filsell]

I assume you are aware of "Taffy" Joes book Tiger Squadron?

[BruceLeylandJones]

Thank you guys.

Granted, they formed at Northolt, where No.2 TS was based, so was that previous thread I found inaccurate with that regard?

Obviously, if I could find it again...

I'm also assuming that by Sopwith Scout, you are referring to the aircraft that became more commonly known as the Pup? (The existence of the Bristol Scout can muddy waters).

I do have the 'Taffy' Jones book and I like to confirm all references, to avoid avoidable (and, therefore, disrespectful, inaccuracies).

Regards,

Bruce

[BruceLeylandJones]

Apologies. My "Tigers" book is one by Bob Cossey.

The opening page refers to the unit being at Northolt on 1st July 1917 and being named as 74 Training Depot Squadron. Some 10 days later, they moved to London Colney "with an initial complement of aircraft consisting mainly of Avro 504s".

I know these to be Avro 504Ks and I know of one to be C4474.

Mr.Cossey then goes on to say that other aircraft types were available for use, "including Sopwith Pups and Scouts".

This isn't helpful, as the Sopwith Scout was the initial, official name for the aircraft which became known as the Pup, on account of its small size, when sat next to a 1 1/2 Strutter. The book, whilst a great read, does have some serious errors when it comes down to aircraft names, as he appears to swap SE5 with SE5a and back again to SE5. Few squadrons received the SE5, as it's performance was disappointing and 74 was not one of them. They got the much-improved version, the SE5a, before travelling to fight and fly in France.

Again, no mention of either No.1, nor No.2 Training Squadrons.

PS I've just spent a penny on the Ira Jones book.

[BruceLeylandJones]

Some more info to add, from Bob Cossey's book; "Tigers".

From Appendix D: Tiger Steeds.

Avro 504K: July 1917-March 1918

B3148, B3196, B4434, B9901, C4312, C4374, C4377, C4474, C4734

Sopwith Pup: January 1918-March 1918

B5284, B5354

Sopwith Scout: January 1918-March 1918

B5313, B7432, B7482, B7492

Interesting, because, as far as I know, the Sopwith Scout and Pup are the same aircraft, with Scout being the official name, supplanted by the nickname Pup early on in its career.

[mickdavis]

From my Home Units file:

74 SQUADRON RFC/RAF

Bases

Formed at Northolt 1.7.1917 with nucleus from 2 Training Squadron. To London Colney 10.7.1917 and mobilised as a Scout squadron. To Goldhanger 25.3.1918 and joined BEF France 30.3.1918. Cadre returned to Lopcombe Corner 10.2.1919 and disbanded 3.7.1919.

Commanding Officers

Major AH O’Hara Wood from 1.7.1917. Major the Hon LJE Twistleton-Fiennes from 11.11.1917. Major ASW Dore DSO from 1.3.1918. Major KL Caldwell MC from 21.3.1918.

Representative Aeroplanes (* joined BEF with the unit)

Avro 504A/J A511, A556, B985, B3147, B3148, B3149, B3150, B3196, B3197, B3200, B4239, B4344, C4312, C4337, C4474.

Sopwith Pup A662, A6222, A6232, A6235, B877, B1737, B2163, B5285, B5290, B5313, B5347, B5354, B5380, B7482, B7487, B7490, B7492, B7493, B7494.

Sopwith F1 Camel B6222, B7789.

RAF SE5a B16, B82, B83, B602, B620, B662, B669, B670, B8405, B8409*, C1079*, C1080*, C1778, C1786*, C1788*, C1790, C1791, C1792*, C6385*, C9617, C9618, D263, D266*, D267*, D269*, D271*, D274*, D278*, D281*.

[BruceLeylandJones]

Thank you Mick.

Helpful to see another confirmation of the No.2 TS origin, alongside the combination of Pup/Scout serials.

I can research the Avro 504 marks and the addition of two Camels is also helpful.

This was the original thread that I found, stating that 74 came from No.1 TS.

That, in turn, came from here.

Regards,

Bruce

[nieuport11]

I'm not sure about the Camels. The Camel file shows B6222 with a question mark, but the accident card has this machine with 34TS

and B7789 was an 86Sq machine

[nieuport11]

Camel B6222 is I think an error for Pup A6222

[BruceLeylandJones]

At least I came to the right place for info!

[BruceLeylandJones]

If anyone wants to see how far I've got in this Projects, here's a quick shufty.

[mickdavis]

Here's the 74 Sqn home casualties from the RAFM cards

170907 7.9.1917 Hooke William Jon 2Lt injured 74 Sqn Avro B3150 Mono 30750/WD11823 engine failure, machine nose-dived in, on return flight from Farnborough 171015 15.10.1917 Habell GW 2Lt injured 74 Sqn Avro B3148 Mono WD8048 stalled at 15ft when practising landings 171102 2.11.1917 Bell DD 2Lt injured 74 Sqn Avro B4239 WD4022 stalled and crashed trying to turn back to aerodrome after engine failure 2Lt LH Smith killed 171102 2.11.1917 Smith Leonard Hale 2Lt killed 74 Sqn Avro B4239 Mono WD4022 tried to turn back with failing engine, satlled and fell out of control 2Lt DB Bell injured 171125 25.11.1917 Thompson CR 2Lt injured 74 Sqn SE5a B669 WD10177 wind got under LH wing and turned the machine over 171130 30.11.1917 Foster-Knight Oscar 2Lt injured 74 Sqn Pup B5286 Mono 30477/WD4168 engine failed, downwind forced landing near aerodrome, overturned 171213 13.12.1917 Cowan J 2Lt injured 74 Sqn SE5a B16 Hisso 115095/WD14342 lost in mist, force-landed and overturned 171225 25.12.1917 Rumball CP 2Lt injured 74 Sqn Avro C4342 Gnome 20125/WD5944 spun from turn at 50ft after take-off 171229 29.12.1917 Barlow E Lt injured 74 Sqn Pup B877 100hp Mono choked engine at 200ft and hit tree 180111 11.1.1918 Greathead JH 2Lt killed 74 Sqn SE5a B662 Hisso 115013/WD10177 machine caught fire and burnt out 180125 25.1.1918 Miller EKW 2Lt injured 74 Sqn SE5a B82 753/WD9328 swung and stalled at c.100ft, crashed and caught fire 180208 8.2.1918 Ellis Douglas Quirk Lt killed 74 Sqn Avro B4344 Mono 30501/WD8048 collision in air, caught fire and crashed 180208 8.2.1918 Stillman Joseph H Flt Cdt fatally injured 74 Sqn Avro C4377 Mono 30666/WD11739 mid-air collision with another Avro during Flighting Practice, caught fire and crashed

Sorry about the format - my Excel spreadsheet looked OK in preview

[ICM - RAF Retd]

Bruce: You'll get your 1p worth from Ira Jones' book, it's a good read..... now I don't know about his later 74 Squadron time, but I'd just say that I've been unable to confirm some of the detail concerning his first year or so as a Wireless Operator/Observer with 10 Squadron. And that's a super looking set of models you have there.

[BruceLeylandJones]

Format's fine Mick and I thank you. A night owl, I see.

I'll assume that the 'Mono' refers to either a single airman, or is a reference to the Gnome Monosoupape engine. The latter would be consistent with the SE5a 'Hisso' and also early Pups. However, most Pups had the Le Rhone.

That said, given only one airman is hurt/killed per crash...

...And thank you, Ian.

[mickdavis]

Mono is the engine - 100hp Gnome. A considerable number had that engine, some on training units and more on HD.

[BruceLeylandJones]

On 08/06/2016 at 08:50, ICM - RAF Retd said:

Bruce: You'll get your 1p worth from Ira Jones' book, it's a good read..... now I don't know about his later 74 Squadron time, but I'd just say that I've been unable to confirm some of the detail concerning his first year or so as a Wireless Operator/Observer with 10 Squadron. And that's a super looking set of models you have there.

 

Indeed...an...erm...interesting read, for many different reasons. That said, it wasn't much help with regards detailed info and, to date, the Bob Cossey book, "Tigers", is way more useful.