Bayonets from here

[assafx]

Hi,

Recently i had a chance to document a few Bayonets from a local collector.

In some cases, his Bayonets are the same type as the relics that we find in excavations.

In this subject i have no knowledge, so i will appreciate your help identifying them.

This is the first one (with Ottoman stamp):

Thank you

Assaf

[assafx]

Two more stamps of this Bayonet:

[MikeyH]

Assaf,

The bayonet in photos one to three and six and seven is a Turkish 1903 pattern, shortened by the Turkish military, some in the Great War period, others at a later date.

The bayonet in photos four and five, was made by the German company Sommerda, is dated 1888 with the W mark of Wilhem 11 of Prussia. With a regimental marking for the 86th Prussian Regt. Difficult to identify the type from the detail shown.

Mike.

[assafx]

Thank you Mike,

i forgot to mention that all these photographs belongs to the same bayonet.

Do you need me to photograph it in adfitional angels to get more details?

Assaf

[MikeyH]

Assaf,

There are 2 different bayonets shown.

A full photo of the German one would help to identify it.

Mike.

[trajan]

The bayonet in photos one to three and six and seven is a Turkish 1903 pattern, shortened by the Turkish military, some in the Great War period, others at a later date.

The bayonet in photos four and five, was made by the German company Sommerda, is dated 1888 with the W mark of Wilhem 11 of Prussia. With a regimental marking for the 86th Prussian Regt. Difficult to identify the type from the detail shown.

i forgot to mention that all these photographs belongs to the same bayonet.

There are 2 different bayonets shown.

A full photo of the German one would help to identify it.

Oh a bit of a mix here Assaf! Certainly two bayonets - the bottom photographs show one without a quillon and the top one shows one with a quillon...

The first one is not a M.1903, though - the M.1903 is modelled on the German S.98 and has a narrow blade (2 cm) - this one is re-modelled from a M.1890 with the wider blade (2.5). There is quite probably an ASAF marking on the other side of the pommel, and if you let us have the ricasso stamp then we might get the original maker. This is with a standard metal 'M.1935' scabbard, with the 'oval' frog stud, and the probability is this that this one - like the one I have (ASAF marked) was shortened in the post-GW period. The Turks did have a short bayonet in the GW, but nothing like this - and that scabbard is certainly post GW.

The second one, well MikeyH is spot on with the maker, year and unit marking (just to add: 11 Kompagnie, Waffe 18{?} - but we really need to have a full-length of the hilt to be certain what it is - I (and MikeyH obviously) have an idea, but...

Julian

PS: EDIT to expand on information regarding blade widths of M.1890, etc.

[assafx]

I forgot my flash drive at work with all the photographs in it. Wed morning i will confirm my mistake and will post the rest.

Assaf

[MikeyH]

Julian,

You are correct, is an 1890 not 1903. My excuse (though should know as I have an 1890), couldn't find my references, buried under a load of other books, just located!

Mike.

[sawdoc34]

2nd one would be 71/84, humpbacked grips & low muzzle ring

[MikeyH]

sawdoc,

Yes, that was my guess.

Mike.

[shippingsteel]

The sawdoc is correct, and no guessing required, just some simple observation of the photos. A reworked Turkish M1890 and a German S71/84 made by Soemmerda.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Nice to see that we all agree on something!

Just to add how the available evidence indicates that Soemmerda won a contract to supply these to Prussia in 1888, as with this example, and to Bavaria also in 1889 and 1890. On a per capita basis, Bavarian marked ones are the more common survivors...

Trajan

PS: MIkeyH - I know the feeling!

[assafx]

Good Morning all,

you were right and i got mixed with the photographs.

two more details from the first one:

here's a photograph of the second one:

could this relic (which i excavated 10 years ago) be the same bayonet?

Thank you

Assaf

[assafx]

here is another relic(not photographed on the studio yet) and what i suspect an equivalent:

here are a few details from it:

[assafx]

[trajan]

Good Morning all,

... could this relic (which i excavated 10 years ago) be the same bayonet?

Morning, Assaf,

1) AS.FA is the abbreviation for the ASkeri FAbrikasi ('Military Factory'), which was established in Turkey in the Republican period, most probably in the 1930's, although the bayonet could have been shortened earlier (but post GW); while the use of 'Arabic' as opposed to Persian-type numbers indicates that the 'serial' number is post 1928/29. If you can show us the ricasso on that one, then it should still have the makers mark, and the date of manufacture also = although this was sometimes scrubbed off. The scabbard is certainly Republican period.

2) Yes, no doubt as to it being an S.71/84. In your original post no. 2 the 'hump' back' and rivets found on these was clear enough but these identifiers are found on other bayonets, and not seeing exactly how high the muzzle-ring was was enough to inspire holding back, although the Prussian mark more or less guaranteed that it was a S.71/84. This is one of the short-fullered type, with the fuller ending just about where the 'false edge' starts, and so it was made early in 1888, and therefore would be classed by many collectors as an S.71/84 a.A. - 'alter Art' type. Those ones made in the closing months of 1888 and after had longer fullers, and are classed as 'neuer Art'. There is no precise date for the change in fuller length, but broadly speaking, all 1886 and 1887-dated examples of this type, and most of the 1888-dated ones, have the short fullers

3) I am at work and - strangely enough! - have no bayonets to hand to make a direct comparison. But the short distance between the rivets and the pommel style and the apparent blade-width on the relic one suggest to me that it is a Turkish 1890. Just possibly a Turkish 1887, with the lower muzzle ring.

Julian

[MikeyH]

Good Morning Assaf,

Relic in #14, is as you suspect a German S98/05 as seen in the sequence of photos. A nice example made by Fichtel & Sachs in 1918, with a scabbard by Mauser.

Mike.

[trajan]

here is another relic(not photographed on the studio yet) and what i suspect an equivalent:

Yes, it is a S.98/05, and probably a n.A., introduced 1916, and originally with a flashguard. I'll make a guess that if you can ever get the makers-mark, it will be WAFFENFABRIK MAUSER, and if you ever get the blade spine date, that will be W/17!

Prussia sent loads of these Waffenfabrik ones to Turkey in 1917, and a few more - it seems - in 1918, which is why I make that guess... I have one of these Waffenfabrik W/17's as a relic, but in much better condition, picked up from the desert sands at Palmyra, along with two others that I bought in Damascus, again Waffenfabrik W/17. Almost all the S.98/05 that I see in Turkey are also that maker and year, with the very rare appearance of a W/16 or a W/18 - in fact about 50% of my S.98/05 collection are Waffenfabrik W/17 examples, and most of my non-Waffenfabrik ones have come from abroad!

The Fitchel and Sachs bayonet is a nice one and is spine-marked L/18 for Ludwig III of Bavaria - but it is - as you can see - with a Waffenfabrik scabbard.

Julian

PS: Hi Mikey H - great minds and all that mate! Hope you have cleared the books from the desk by now?

[assafx]

Morning, Assaf,

1) AS.FA is the abbreviation for the ASkeri FAbrikasi ('Military Factory'), which was established in Turkey in the Republican period, most probably in the 1930's, although the bayonet could have been shortened earlier (but post GW); while the use of 'Arabic' as opposed to Persian-type numbers indicates that the 'serial' number is post 1928/29. If you can show us the ricasso on that one, then it should still have the makers mark, and the date of manufacture also = although this was sometimes scrubbed off. The scabbard is certainly Republican period.

2) Yes, no doubt as to it being an S.71/84. In your original post no. 2 the 'hump' back' and rivets found on these was clear enough but these identifiers are found on other bayonets, and not seeing exactly how high the muzzle-ring was was enough to inspire holding back, although the Prussian mark more or less guaranteed that it was a S.71/84. This is one of the short-fullered type, with the fuller ending just about where the 'false edge' starts, and so it was made early in 1888, and therefore would be classed by many collectors as an S.71/84 a.A. - 'alter Art' type. Those ones made in the closing months of 1888 and after had longer fullers, and are classed as 'neuer Art'. There is no precise date for the change in fuller length, but broadly speaking, all 1886 and 1887-dated examples of this type, and most of the 1888-dated ones, have the short fullers

3) I am at work and - strangely enough! - have no bayonets to hand to make a direct comparison. But the short distance between the rivets and the pommel style and the apparent blade-width on the relic one suggest to me that it is a Turkish 1890. Just possibly a Turkish 1887, with the lower muzzle ring.

Julian

Julian,

I just rechecked, there's nothing on the Ricasso aside from the Ottoman / Turkish flag on the side of it .

I wonder how this bayonet got here, the collector bought it in here now is it something that somone brought from turkey today or 80 years ago i guess we'll never know.

Assaf

[trajan]

Julian,

I just rechecked, there's nothing on the Ricasso aside from the Ottoman / Turkish flag on the side of it .

I wonder how this bayonet got here, the collector bought it in here now is it something that somone brought from turkey today or 80 years ago i guess we'll never know.

Assaf

Pity about that scrubbing of the ricasso, but the makers are known so I'll send you a list later.

Well, bayonets do move around, as you know... And I suspect that the Fitchel and Sachs one arrived over where you are from Europe with a collector (of dealer) some time after the GW. Incidentally, I have a really nice Israeli 1949 bayonet and matching numbered scabbard which I found some years back in a shop over here where I am...!!!

[assafx]

Yes, it is a S.98/05, and probably a n.A., introduced 1916, and originally with a flashguard. I'll make a guess that if you can ever get the makers-mark, it will be WAFFENFABRIK MAUSER, and if you ever get the blade spine date, that will be W/17!

Prussia sent loads of these Waffenfabrik ones to Turkey in 1917, and a few more - it seems - in 1918, which is why I make that guess... I have one of these Waffenfabrik W/17's as a relic, but in much better condition, picked up from the desert sands at Palmyra, along with two others that I bought in Damascus, again Waffenfabrik W/17. Almost all the S.98/05 that I see in Turkey are also that maker and year, with the very rare appearance of a W/16 or a W/18 - in fact about 50% of my S.98/05 collection are Waffenfabrik W/17 examples, and most of my non-Waffenfabrik ones have come from abroad!

The Fitchel and Sachs bayonet is a nice one and is spine-marked L/18 for Ludwig III of Bavaria - but it is - as you can see - with a Waffenfabrik scabbard.

Julian

PS: Hi Mikey H - great minds and all that mate! Hope you have cleared the books from the desk by now?

The relic had no surviving marks on it. It was found with a scabbard but as far as i recall the marks on it were gone too.

I need to check and photograph these relics as well with the relics that we discussed last year (m1903 or hilt quillon).

the problem is coordinating this effort.

[assafx]

Mike and Julian thank you for your help.

i will have some more questions about earlier posts when i'll get home but first i need to go out to the field.

here's another one with almost no marks on it.

Assaf

[trajan]

Mike and Julian thank you for your help.

i will have some more questions about earlier posts when i'll get home but first i need to go out to the field.

here's another one with almost no marks on it.

Ah, an Ersatz bayonet! Made in Germany between late 1914 and the end of 1915. This looks to be one of those that Carter in his over zealous cataloging system classed as an EB 17... Examples of the EBayonets also went to Turkey, some possibly during the GW, some possibly after, and the serial number 1457 is characteristically Turkish Republican - but there are traces of an original German serial on the other side. Check the blade spine - there should be a crowned fraktur letter there, but none of these one were ever maker-marked... This type of scabbard is usual with one or other of the EB series.

[assafx]

Thank you Julian,
There are no other marks other then the ones that i posted.

It seems that the majority of the bayonets that i've posted have a post war phase.

but how many of them seemed to be or were used by the Ottoman army during the GW?

[trajan]

It seems that the majority of the bayonets that i've posted have a post war phase. but how many of them seemed to be or were used by the Ottoman army during the GW?

Of the good ones, the EB and the S.98/05 are WW1 and so could be used by the Ottoman army in the GW- but not the shortened Turkish M.1890, which is a pre-GW bayonet shortened in the post GW period (probably 1930's), nor the S.71/84, which - to the best of my knowledge - never made it to the Ottoman army (it is for the Gew. 71/84). The relic 98/05 yes, that will be GW period in use by the Ottoman army. But, I strongly suspect that all those good ones arrived in the Levant long after the GW as collector's/dealers items'

On the subject of relics, I looked back at the one in post no. 13... What is the distance overall from rivet (or screw bolt?) to rivet, centre to centre or overall? It looks to be 6.5 cm which I can't fit with anything obvious that I have of GW date...SS might now as he likes that kind of esoterica!