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EB69 Ersatz bayonet


jscott
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A while ago I decided that I would not collect ersatz bayonets on the grounds that there are just too many variations and sub-variations. My main focus has always been bayonets with some discernible "history" to them - which I generally obtain by focussing on unit marked bayonets.

Anyway, I've ended up straying from this rule on a few occasions, including most recently with this nice example of an EB69 ersatz bayonet - which utilises an English P1853 socket bayonet for the blade. I find this particularly fascinating as the original bayonet was current at the time of the Crimean War - and yet was reused by the Germans in early-WW1 (albeit presumably by second line units).

Anyway, its a less common type of ersatz bayonet so I thought Id share some photos. Any thoughts/ comments welcome!

Cheers, Jonathan

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And yes, unfortunately the triangular scabbard throat is missing - I din't think it was sensible to hold out for an example with this intact!

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I know what you mean about these Ersatz ones... Far too many types around, and so it is a specialisation in itself! I have a small collection of the regular ones but I have kept well clear of these re-used socket-bladed ones partly because they are rare over here, and partly because there are so many sub-types...

So, a fraktur 'A' and also a fraktur 'G', Williams vol 2, 195, shows another example of this combination and says there that these two "appear on almost all bayonets in this group". I guess this one has the simple form of press stud for the bayonet release catch, rather than the 'knurled' version?

Have you worked out the GB stamp(s)? And what is the MRD - it looks to be double-stepped for the Gew.88 and/or 98, but check as it could be one of those rare ones for the SMLE!

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Hi Trajan

Thanks for the info - you're ahead of me in my research I'm afraid. I only ended up buying this one as I thought it had a fascinating history and it came from a very reliable source - I'm certainly no expert on these bayonets.

I'm about to dig out Skennerton and see what I can learn about the GB stamp. I don't have the second Williams volume yet but this may be a good reason to invest (especially as I think the first volume is outstanding). And yes this one has the standard release catch but not sure on MRD. Ill measure it up tomorrow and let you know.

Cheers, Jonathan

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Hello J, the original socket bayonet which supplied the 'donor' blade for this ersatz example, appears to have been manufactured in Belgium.

The British inspection marking (lowest of the 3) shown below looks to be a Crown over L/7 and in this case the L stands for the town of Liege.

And the production of the P1853 socket bayonet was contracted out to many different manufacturers, including some from Belgium & France.

Cheers, S>S

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According to Graham Priest, Socket Bayonets: A History and Collector's Guide, with his Fig. 121, production of the P.1853 was sourced out to Liège, and other places, quite early on owing to the high demands of the Crimean War, the Indian Mutiny, and the US of A Civil War and so some were also made at Solingen.

I have never looked into it, but I do wonder where the Germans found these ones!

Trajan

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Thanks both

From my brief bout of research it looks like the "L" not only stands for Liege, but also that "L7" is quite a common letter/number combination for this bayonet. Skennerton didn't have a huge amount to add - and I don't yet have that Priest book; Trajan would you recommend picking up a copy?

Re sourcing, perhaps the bayonet stayed in Belgium for some reason, or alternatively Germany may well have acquired a batch of 1853 pattern bayonets at some point whilst they were still on good terms with the Brits. But all just speculation of course...

Cheers, Jonathan

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... also that "L7" is quite a common letter/number combination for this bayonet. Skennerton didn't have a huge amount to add - and I don't yet have that Priest book; Trajan would you recommend picking up a copy? ... Re sourcing, perhaps the bayonet stayed in Belgium for some reason, or alternatively Germany may well have acquired a batch of 1853 pattern bayonets at some point whilst they were still on good terms with the Brits. ...

Interestingly S&R in British and Coonwealth, p. 107, show a "crown / L / 8"...!!! And a bit of Google (re)search brought up this: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?18620-P1853-Cavalry-Swords-Made-in-Li%E8ge a "British 1853 pattern Cavalry Trooper's Sword ... marked to the 7th (Queen's Own) Hussars ...an inspection mark consisting of a crown over the letter "L" over a figure "8". In that same thread there is also mention of "two P1821 British Light cavalry swords, marked VW on the ricasso and with the crown L8 inspection mark". The thread also discusses the possibility that Liege-marked edged weapons came from Solingen and were inspected at Liege by a GB official.

On sourcing, well Williams doesn't say anything - but he does note that some of these re-used P.1853 blades come from a variety of GB makers (e.g., his pp. 213-214, with some rare makers!)... I wonder if they went to France after the Crimean War and were seized from armouries / museums there in 1914?

As for Priest's book, I am not a socket bayonet collector but know somebody who is and he highly recommends it! William's vol 2 is a must, though - as with vol 1, he doesn't (sadly) really provide much detail on the individual types other than what are essentially catalogue entries (i.e., no discussion as to who used them and when and why introduced, etc) - but the photographs are fantastic for reference!

Julian

EDIT: rephrasing...

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I think a small number of this type of ersatz bayonet appeared on the market about two or three years ago which were sourced from Afghanistan; they all seem to be in quite reasonable condition. -SW

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Hi Sommewalker - yes I read that somewhere, apparently a lot came home with servicemen as souvenirs. It is in quite decent condition - with reasonable amounts of remaining feldgrau paint etc. I wonder what other caches of WW1 bayonets will be found in different countries in years to come.

Cheers, Jonathan

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I think a small number of this type of ersatz bayonet appeared on the market about two or three years ago which were sourced from Afghanistan; they all seem to be in quite reasonable condition. -SW

Hi Sommewalker - yes I read that somewhere, apparently a lot came home with servicemen as souvenirs. It is in quite decent condition - with reasonable amounts of remaining feldgrau paint etc. I wonder what other caches of WW1 bayonets will be found in different countries in years to come.

Williams vol 2, 337, shows 50 "ErSocs" - Ersatz made with socket blades - that were a single consignment received from Afghanistan in 2001... These included three basic hilt types, but few scabbards, and examples with blades dating 1767-1867 from - wait for it...: Austria, Belgium, France, GB, Denmark, Norway, Russia, Spain, Switzerland and the US of A,,,

Now you see, if you didn't realise before, why collecting this class of Ersatz really is a specialised thing - and why I steer clear of it!

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  • 1 year later...
  • 2 weeks later...

 

 

On 4/21/2018 at 11:32, zuluwar2006 said:

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That IS a nice assortment! Can we have some more of the one in the leather scabbard please? 

 

I have never 'gone into' these socket-bladed 'Ersatz' but Roy Wiliam's second volume has page after page on them. Many seem to be 'bring-backs' from Afghanistan...

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2 hours ago, trajan said:

 

 

 

That IS a nice assortment! Can we have some more of the one in the leather scabbard please? 

 

I have never 'gone into' these socket-bladed 'Ersatz' but Roy Wiliam's second volume has page after page on them. Many seem to be 'bring-backs' from Afghanistan...

Trajan

those are all bought on Germany, during my trips there, a long time before the war in Afghanistan. Is extremely impossible to sell them in local fleamarkets for 60-200 euros and have bring them from Afghanistan, if you get my point of view!!!!!;)

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'Point' taken indeed:)

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4 minutes ago, trajan said:

'Point' taken indeed:)

:)

 

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