Help discovering my Grandfathers Coldstream Guard/Royal Artillery hist

[Margaret Anne]

Hello there, this is my first post, so I do hope I am posting in the right place!

I am hoping someone will be able to help me find out my grandfathers history during his service in the Coldstream Guards/Royal Artillery during WW1. I have quite a bit of information to go on, but I am unsure about the order of his service in the Army.

What I have so far:-

My Grandfather's name was Frank Nicholls born 09 April 1889. My father (who is now 88 and may have got things a little muddled), believes his father was a Coldstream Guard who signed up voluntary before WW1 began. Dad thinks his father came out of the Coldstream Guards to marry his mother in 1914 (I have them on my family tree with a marriage date of 08 June 1914), but then he was conscripted back into the Army with the onset of the war. Dad says that Grandad was signed up into the York and Lancaster Regiment of the Royal Artillery. I have Grandads Allied Victory Medal and it is inscripted on the rim with his name, regiment and service number. The service number is 179398 1st Battalion, Y. & L., Private F. Nicholls. Dad says Grandad also got the Mons Star and the British War Medal

Dad is unsure as to whether Grandad was given a new service number when signing into the Y. & L. or if he kept the same service number he was given in the Coldstream Guards. Grandad was drafted out to France, it must have been 1914 as and he fought in the Battle of Mons where he got shot in his left shoulder. A sniper shot at grandad and a 'dum-dum' bullet as my dad refers to it, ripped the muscle out of Grandads shoulder. He was in convalescence but then he was discharched as unfit for service. He returned home, but I'm not sure how soon he was sent home. I wondered if there would be any record of my Grandad being wounded/hospital records/discharge records and if so, where would I be able to find them.

I have a feeling that dad may have got the story the wrong way around, i.e. I think Grandad may have been in the Royal Artillery York and Lancaster before being a Coldstream Guard. Would my grandfather have kept his Service Record Book on being discharged, or would it have been retained by the British Army and is there any way I could get a copy of the record book. The reason I think grandad was a Coldstream Guard later, is because I remember Granny telling me she used to go to London to watch the changing of the Guards and I'm sure she said Grandad was one of the Guards.

I have an old tatty photo of my Grandad in his Coldstream Guard uniform, he has a star shape badge on his collar and a chevron shape stripe on his left sleeve with what looks to be two swords crossed above the chevron. I wonder if anyone could tell me if these have anything to do with what rank he might have been in the Coldstream Guards. I have attached the photo below.

Any ideas, thoughts, comments would be most appreciated.

Kind Regards, Margaret

p.s. sorry I think I may have posted before the photo attached!

[Coldstreamer]

he would have been given a new number

def a colstream picture - 2 buttons together means 2 nd foot Guards ie Coldstream

[Coldstreamer]

you sure on the service number? far to high for a line regiment at this time

could it be 17399 ?

[Coldstreamer]

17399 was Frank Nichols in the York and Lancaster - discharged Para 392 xvi King's Regulation G.S.W. Left Breast & Shoulder

First name(s) Frank Last name Nicholls Service number 17399 Rank Private Badge number 89339 Enlistment date 23-Nov-1914 Discharge date 31-Mar-1916 Regiment/unit 3rd (1st) Cause of discharge Para 392 xvi King's Regulation G.S.W. Left Breast & Shoulder Whether served overseas Yes Badge date of issue 15-Dec-1916 Record set Silver War Badge Roll 1914-1920 Category Military, armed forces & conflict Subcategory First World War Collections from Great Britain

[Margaret Anne]

Thank you Coldstreamer, as the inscription on the medal also said Y & L, then is there any know website that might list service numbers for Coldstream Guards?

[Margaret Anne]

Ah, sorry the was a typing error, I thought it was 17398 as the numbers are difficult to read, but the 8 must be a 9! So 17399, thank you

[Margaret Anne]

Oh, thank you again! that's fantastic, I've been searching for websites but always to no avail!

[Coldstreamer]

often the case, numbering can wear on victory medals.

There is no site I know of. However, I have just been to the coldstream archives and they are listing all the men with their numbers - might be worth a letter to them - they may charge though £30 if you want copy papers

Coldstream archives

Wellington Barrcaks

Birdcage Walk

London

sw1e 6hq

bit more for you - his medal card

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A001151-01045?pid=860270&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dMedalRolls%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dfrank%26gsfn_x%3d0%26_F8007A65%3d17399%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dfdm%26pcat%3d39%26fh%3d1%26h%3d860270%26recoff%3d9%2b56%2b57%26ml_rpos%3d2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true

nothing to do with this but I used to have the medals to 17399 in the coldstream guards - who was also called Frank (but Rowley)

[Coldstreamer]

and if you can get the medals all together future generations of your family will thank you - millions of medals get separated and be nice if they all came together again

[Margaret Anne]

Oh, that's amazing! Thank you so much for the medal card. My father will be so pleased when I tell him. I was subscribed to Ancestry, but nothing ever showed up for my grandfather. I did however, find information on the commonwealth war graves website of my grandfathers younger brother, Herbert Nicholls who died at France and Flanders. I have found the war memorial graveyard near Calais, where his grave is and downloaded all of great uncle Herberts details. It seems it is easier to find those who lost their lives, but not so easy to find details of those who survived the war! Herbert died on 26 March 1918 and I have found a battle for that date, so can only presume it was that battle he died in.

That is strange that someone else had the same number as Grandad! And his name was Frank too!

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Just chipping in with my two pence worth...

His Coldstream Guards photo shows a signallers badge on his left arm above 2 good conduct badges.

The 2 good conduct badges suggest at least 5 years colour service.

Usual Coldstream Guards terms of service were 3 years with the colours and 9 on the reserve but the 12 years could be varied to 7 with the colours and 5 on the reserve.

Now for a bit of speculation - If he was born 1889 he could have joined 1905/06, claiming to be 18, and served 5 plus years with the colours before WW1.

He was probably not serving on the Reserve at the outbreak of war - unless he was speedily discharged on sickness grounds on recall from the reserve in 1914 and the re enlisted in Y & L - so may have "bought" himself out pre WW1.

Back to facts - He re enlists November 1914 and is quickly posted to France - suggesting previous military service.

He is not entitled to the Mons (1914) Star but to the 1914/15 Star.

As Ian says your best bet is to apply to RHQ Coldstream Guards for his papers as that will rule out all speculation.

Good Luck

Steve Y

[Margaret Anne]

Dad said all of Grandads medals were kept together, he seems to have misplaced them, but they must be in the house somewhere. Dad still lives in the same house that he was brought up in, so they will be somewhere if we dig deep into some old drawers or cupboards! I think I have this one medal because my daughter was doing a WW1 Topic at school and my dad gave her a few bits, but he doesn't seem to remember now where he has put the other medals.

I am researching six soldiers at the moment, 3 from WW1 and 3 of dads elder brothers from WW2. There are two more of my ancestors that I have discovered were in WW1, one survived and one was lost at sea, but I haven't got round to researching them yet!

Thank you for the address above also.

[Michelle Young]

Oh, that's amazing! Thank you so much for the medal card. My father will be so pleased when I tell him. I was subscribed to Ancestry, but nothing ever showed up for my grandfather. I did however, find information on the commonwealth war graves website of my grandfathers younger brother, Herbert Nicholls who died at France and Flanders. I have found the war memorial graveyard near Calais, where his grave is and downloaded all of great uncle Herberts details. It seems it is easier to find those who lost their lives, but not so easy to find details of those who survived the war! Herbert died on 26 March 1918 and I have found a battle for that date, so can only presume it was that battle he died in.

That is strange that someone else had the same number as Grandad! And his name was Frank too!

I can find a Herbert Nicholls buried at Etaples but not the same date of death as you give. Is this your man in the Iniskillings? If it is I can get a photo for you in July

[Margaret Anne]

Hello Steve, thanks for your comments. Sorry to show my ignorance, but you mention Grandad wasn't entitled to the Mons Star, but the 1914-15 star instead. Why is this? Hope that's not a silly question!

Dad does seem intent that Grandad fought in the Battle of Mons, but if he re-enlisted in November 1914 then that rules that battle out as I do know that the battle occurred 23rd August 1914.

Would applying for his papers, list the battle he fought in when he got shot in the chest/shoulder. Dad mentioned that the bullet went up the ribs and took the shoulder muscle out! Sounds pretty awful, but as he survived then he was one of the lucky ones! I did wonder if he was sent straight home as soon as he was fit enough or if he would have had to stay and take on some other duties, rather than fighting.

[Margaret Anne]

Hello Michelle, Thanks for your interest, I found the information from the British Commonwealth Graves Commission website. My great uncle Herbert was in the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. Here are the details of Herbert Nicholls: Private H. Nicholls 201313, 2nd/4th Bn., King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, died on 26 March 1918. He lies in the Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, Sanchez. My elder cousin has been to France and found the grave, purely by chance on one of her visits there.

[Michelle Young]

I can say hello for you in September, cabaret Rouge is a big post war concentration cemetery.

[Margaret Anne]

Thank you Michelle,

I'm just going back through all of these post now, trying to digest it all. Quite a few posts came in while I was answering others. I am a novice and a bit slow, but it is nice to know that there are so many people out there that are willing to help.

[Coldstreamer]

basically (very basic) mons star, the 1914 star if you went to France / Belgium before 22 Nov 1914 - the 1914-15 star if you went after up to 31.1.15

but this doesnt apply to other theatres of war.

for a better account try places such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_Star

[Coldstreamer]

if you want to ask about other people start a new thread, it will get confused other wise and miss out other "experts" - anything Coldstream gets my attention

[Margaret Anne]

Thank you, Coldstreamer! Lesson learned! My first day on here and I appreciate your comment. I did think to myself earlier that this could get confusing after I mentioned Grandads younger brother and got a reply from a very nice lady! Although, it is nice to know that there are others out there to help novices like me. I have several ancestors that all went to war and I am so passionate about finding out not just who my ancestors were, but what their lives were like and what they had to endure during their time on earth.

[Coldstreamer]

We all have to start somewhere. Novices may well be family, and family are frequently one of the best sources of information that you would simply not find elsewhere.

[Margaret Anne]

Ah, yes they are a great source. My problem is.... I spent most of my childhood with my Nan, and listened to her stories about the war years, constantly asking her to tell me over and over again ! The stories never left me, but unfortunately, the wisest person in the world is no longer with me! I now have to piece together the information that was given to me over 40-50 years ago!