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AndrewFrench
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We were under the impression that the sergeant was 6th Inniskillings and the man who welcomed Tprs Potts and Andrews back to the front lines on 23 August 1915 at Suvla, however their museum says not. This Bn was part of 29th Bde , 10th Irish Division

Can any member assist.

I can make out a grenade of the sergeant's stripes suggesting a fusilier connection

post-7967-0-93957600-1463171672_thumb.jp

Regards

Andrew


Closeup of the Sergeant's rank

post-7967-0-43828300-1463172148_thumb.jp

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If I'd seen the man from the waist up only I'd have guessed either an RE or RA Serjeant because of the bomb above his stripes and what looks like a 2 letter shoulder title, but the kilt and bunnet have thrown me. One thing nI will say is that's definately not Suvla bay, looks more like a static camp, possibly a German POW camp going by the dress of the man on the right and his lack of cap badge.

Sam

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The kilted man on the left is a Black Watch soldier evidenced by the red hackle worn in his Balmoral bonnet. As pointed out by Sam, the shoulder title is of two letters and can easily be RH. As for an Irish connection, the 9th Batt Black Watch was in the 16th Irish Division from July 1918 onward.

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If I'd seen the man from the waist up only I'd have guessed either an RE or RA Serjeant because of the bomb above his stripes and what looks like a 2 letter shoulder title, but the kilt and bunnet have thrown me. One thing nI will say is that's definately not Suvla bay, looks more like a static camp, possibly a German POW camp going by the dress of the man on the right and his lack of cap badge.

Sam

I think the other chap is in a version of "hospital blues" (as a convalescent soldier) with white shirt and red tie.

Does the grenade indicate he is a bomber? (in this case perhaps an instructor?)

Chris

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The style of the hose flashes is also consistent with the Black Watch.

The arm badge? Bomber or perhaps Light Trench Mortar trained?

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Thanks for feedback chaps

I am certain that this picture in taken in UK. Trooper Fred Potts VC is the figure on the right in hospital blues.

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The arm badge? Bomber or perhaps Light Trench Mortar trained?

According to David Langley's book, scarlet grenade indicated bombers, blue grenade trench mortar. Impossible to tell colour here though of course :thumbsup:

David's book also mentions the 1917 Royal Army Clothing Department refers to the badge being flat in both colour versions, replacing the earlier raised olive drab ball formed over a small wooden mould with the flames being scarlet.

He implies the simplification occurred when the blue TMB version was introduced for which he can find no reference earlier than 1917.

Our photo here is clearly of that earlier bi-colour three dimensional type.

Worn in this position, it has no fusilier connection, though this arrangement was used with rank indication in RE and certain other units (Grenadier Guards?). His shoulder titles, kilt, flashes and hackle all seem to confirm Royal Highlanders/Black Watch in this instance though.

Edit: revised to clarify as per posts #10 and #12 below. Thanks to Andrew for highlighting the inconsistency.

Edited by MBrockway
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PS slightly off topic, but isn't the chap in the background Ron Mael, the keyboardist from 70's beat combo Sparks? :w00t:
post-20192-0-01855100-1463215582_thumb.j post-20192-0-72685600-1463215566_thumb.j

Apologies in advance for lowering the tone

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According to David Langley's book, scarlet grenade indicated bombers, blue grenade trench mortar. Worn in this position, it has no fusilier connection. Impossible to tell colour here though of course :thumbsup:

Not quite true - the TM grenade was always all blue, the bomber badge red flames and khaki ball. The grenade here appears decidedly two-tone, which would add weight to it being a bombers badge.

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Well spotted Derek. Fred was a freemason but I don't know from what date.

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Not quite true - the TM grenade was always all blue, the bomber badge red flames and khaki ball. The grenade here appears decidedly two-tone, which would add weight to it being a bombers badge.

Sorry - I thought I'd covered that when I mentioned the bi-colour earlier version with ball moulded over a wooden core with ball in olive drab and flames in scarlet. Clearly our version here is that bi-colour pre-1917 badge which had no differentiation between bomber or trench mortar specialisms. Whether that badge even included trench mortar specialists, I am unsure!

I added that content in a later edit without seeing how the altered post read as a whole (always dangerous!), I see now it is misleading, so I'll go back and edit my post. Thanks Andrew!

Also the moulded pre-1917 bi-colour badge would surely have continued in use after the flat all-red bomber badge was introduced, so we cannot use this bi-colour version to date the image.

Mark

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Thanks for feedback chaps

I am certain that this picture in taken in UK. Trooper Fred Potts VC is the figure on the right in hospital blues.

I agree - it has a look of buildings at a railway goods depot to me.

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Not quite true - the TM grenade was always all blue, the bomber badge red flames and khaki ball. The grenade here appears decidedly two-tone, which would add weight to it being a bombers badge.

The TM grenade was always all blue, but I'm not sure if you're also implying the bomber's version of the badge was always bi-colour?

I don't think you are, but for the clarification of others, David's 2009 book contains a colour photo of the later flat all-red grenade badge (#45 on page 20, Ref #55 in his earlier book with Edwards) and he cites the 1917 RACD in the text (p.12) thus:

"1917 RACD. Scarlet, bombers. Blue, trench mortar. Balls flat without wooden mould, scarlet is all scarlet, in place of drab ball and scarlet flame."

Unfortunately he has no colour photo of the cloth version of the three dimensional grenade and no reference to it in the text other than the above. On p.16 he has a contemporary studio portrait of a bomber corporal in an infantry regiment (definitely not RE, RA, GG nor fusiliers) that is very close to our picture here.

David gives a reference to AO 403 of 1915 for the grenadier badge and that the blue TM badge was authorised in 1916, endorsed by GRO 1364 1917.

Apparently there is a scan of this reference somewhere here on the forum, but I have so far failed to turn it up.

Good discussion of these badges here though: Another uniform

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The TM grenade was always all blue, but I'm not sure if you're also implying the bomber's version of the badge was always bi-colour?

I don't think you are, but for the clarification of others, David's 2009 book contains a colour photo of the later flat all-red grenade badge (#45 on page 20, Ref #55 in his earlier book with Edwards) and he cites the 1917 RACD in the text (p.12) thus:

Sorry, I was trying to keep things simple. Technically speaking, two-tone (khaki ball, blue flames) blue bombers badges exist as well, but they appear to be an officers/private purchase thing (and very unlike the official style as seen in the original post). The official line was always:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109443

"Two of each type grenade was approved during the war for Bomber/Grenadiers and TMB.

Bombers/Grenadiers by RACD pattern 8578/1915 (no Date)-This one was Scarlet Flames Khaki Bomb--The Bomb having a wooden insert.

TMB Grenade 8646/1916 (21/1/16)--All Blue with wooden insert in Bomb. (lists as Introduction of pattern)

Bombers Badge-9694/1917 (10/10/17)--All Scarlet--replacing above as stocks run out.

TMB Badge--9695/1917 (10/10/17)--All Blue--wooden insert deleted in manufacture(last insruction ambigous as to whether this is only for the TMB Badge or also the Bomber). replacing above as stocks ran out.

All Bombers/TMB Badges declared obsolete in August 1921.

I think that this covers everything and nothing has been missed in the ledger that is no longer to be found. By going through the Obsolete lists from 1919 into the 1920's that missing ledger can be pretty much reproduced only the detailed descriptive detail is missing.

I think that between TM and Krithia all official types are posted (I have only the pattern 8646/16 and posting a picture would add nothing).

No Metal badges and no white flames.

I believe that the larger TMB badges with Khaki Bombs illustrated are not official issue and procured via private sources. The others are the standard issue devices.

It's always good from my perspective knowing whats what officially then seeing what else was done, available or is out there.

Joe Sweeney"

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Chapter & verse - excellent! :thumbsup:

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Thanks for feedback chaps

I am certain that this picture in taken in UK. Trooper Fred Potts VC is the figure on the right in hospital blues.

Andrew, there is a typed report from 31st inf Bde, 10th Irish Div showing the names of the 6th R Innis Fus witnesses who were present when Potts dragged Andrews into the line. It is part of the 31st Inf Bde diary. See Post #21 here click

The witnesses were:

Capt Robert Hamilton Scott, 6th (Service) Bn Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

11290 Sgt William Brown 6th (Service) Bn Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, later Lt Indian Army

12854 L/Cpl Ernest Crawley 6th (Service) Bn Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, later Labour Corps

he Officer sending in the report was Maj W P B Fraser, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.

Is there any reason why there is a link between the man in the photo with Potts and the witness. Why do we think there is a connection? Is there a caption? MG

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Hi Martin,

The Potts family have always understood that this was a picture of Sgt Wm Brown with Fred Potts but when we checked with the Inniskilling's musuem they told us not - hence this enquiry

NB I have just posted something on a thread ref Major PD Fitzgerald started by Michael Elder and commented by Steve Becker

Regards

Andrew

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Hi Martin,

The Potts family have always understood that this was a picture of Sgt Wm Brown with Fred Potts but when we checked with the Inniskilling's musuem they told us not - hence this enquiry

NB I have just posted something on a thread ref Major PD Fitzgerald started by Michael Elder and commented by Steve Becker

Regards

Andrew

Andrew

At risk of stating the obvious, the Black Watch was not at Gallipoli. The 52nd Lowland Division was at Helles, many miles from Suvla and Chocolate hill so there were no Scottish Highland infantry at Suvla at the time. The only Scottish infantry at Suvla in late Aug 1915 were the 1st Bn KOSB and the 1/5th Bn Royal Scots (TF) (both lowland regiments without kilts) of 29th Div who were on KTS a mile or so to the North West of Chocolate Hill.

I think The Potts family are mistaken. This simply looks like a photo of a BW Sgt congratulating Potts, who looks as if he is wearing hospital clothing and probably in the UK and not the Dardanelles given the infrastructure and the uniforms.

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