JefR Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 I'm helping a mate who is seeking information on a relative taken prisoner on 21 March 1918. I've turned up the relevant Swiss Red Cross information and it appears that he was wounded. Of 11 entries on one of the camp ledger pages, 10 are marked "Unverwundet", but in that location my man's entry reads:- "G. G. Bein ü Knie" (though the last word/abreviation may be Knia or Knis) I'm assuming it was some sort of thigh wound, but can anyone enlighten me as to its precise nature? JefR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 With the umlaut I would expect u to stand for "over" - G.G. bone above the knee? Sorry I can't help with Gs unless one stands for Große - large/serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAW Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 According to the 'Glossary of abbreviations and acronyms in the lists' which is downloadable from the same ICRC website: G.G. = Gewehr Geschoss = rifle bullet [others not listed] Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 Good find Mark, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 Hello JefR There won´t be an ü. It will be an u. One drew a line above the u to make a difference to an n. So it will be G.G. Bein u. Knie (Gewehr-Geschoß leg and knee) http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/9/96/S%25C3%25BCtterlin_Kleinbuchstaben.png&imgrefurl=http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/S%25C3%25BCtterlin&h=431&w=957&tbnid=HfFbJ4xrfxy0oM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=200&docid=Tc1UBXRONplaHM&client=firefox-b&usg=__0fPxcdrW1__esAPBbKwRoS1euKk=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiE0tObgdXMAhUJ3SwKHWAcDaQQ9QEILTAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefR Posted 12 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2016 Yes Mark, that must be it - I agree with Jane - good call. Thanks for your help. Jef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 No. It must be Bein und Knie. Those terms are equal in every medic reports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefR Posted 12 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2016 That's very strange Andy - it's definitely an umlaut. If I can make the attachment work you'll be able to see it. Jef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 Yes, Jef, that´s right, BUT: It´s written in english ( > "2nd", "Mrs." and "house"), so the writer probably was english. It seems, he did read the original german handwritings wrong, when he copies the text with a typewriter. That´s my guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnumbellum Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 Yes, Jef, that´s right, BUT: It´s written in english ( > "2nd", "Mrs." and "house"), so the writer probably was english. It seems, he did read the original german handwritings wrong, when he copies the text with a typewriter. That´s my guess.. Possible, but reading the u umlaut as "ueber" (I have no access to accenting), would put it, "Rifle bullet, leg above the knee", which makes complete sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 I wouldn´t say, it makes sense... A leg consists of thigh, knee and lower leg. No german doctor would write "leg over knee" (Bein über Knie). Never. In german language it doesn´t make any sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 It's a German record, so it will have been typed by a German clerk. The details to the right are in English because they are address and NOK particulars. GG is equivalent to the English annotation 'GSW' = 'gunshot wound'. 'Bein u. Knie' = 'leg and knee'. Wound descriptions usually specify which leg and whether it is in the upper or lower leg, In this case, if sustained during an attack, I suspect this is probably a machine-gun bullet wound to the knee joint and the leg bone just above it, as that is the level at which MGs were often set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 upper leg would be Oberschenkel normally in German medical terms. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 My own grandfather's wound record was (hand)written thusly: "linken Unterschenkel schuss", meaning shot (in his) left lower leg, which seems to fit what a few folks have said. FWIW I am far from an expert, but thought I would add my two cents and express my sympathy for Jef in his struggles to understand things written in an unfamiliar tongue nearly a century ago. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 The accepted abbreviation for über is "üb." In my opinion the ü is a typo and it should read Knie u Bein. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefR Posted 12 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2016 Wow! I've just returned home after an evening out. When I left I thought my problem was solved, but I've come back to seven more contributions that clearly deserve serious consideration. I think it's fantastic that people are prepared to devote their time and obvious expertise to helping others, and I'm genuinely grateful for the help I've received from everyone who has responded. It's a real demonstration of the strength of this forum. I've decided that I'll sleep on it, weigh up all the views that have been expressed, and make my decision tomorrow. Jef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 13 May , 2016 Share Posted 13 May , 2016 I am just reading the thread- no need to think about it. The Prussian, AOK and Daniel are right. With my humble German language- and military language expertise I can truly say this is the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 May , 2016 Share Posted 13 May , 2016 I have no idea what a GW period German keyboard looked like... Was the ordinary U anywhere near the umlauted one? In modern ones there is - if I remember rightly from several years back - three or four keys between them. Just wondering if it was a typing mistake,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 13 May , 2016 Share Posted 13 May , 2016 I think it was an english writer with a german typewriter. He couldn't know the handwritten line upon the u, so he probably thought, it was an ü. Trajan. Here is my typewriter. It a model of the 40s, but I think there was no difference to older models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefR Posted 15 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2016 I really appreciate everyone's help on this. My original query was directed at the "G. G." part of the abbreviation - I didn't realise there was a Glossary attached to the Swiss database (thanks Mark) - that's now clear. I'll write it up as "Gun shot wound in the leg", that should cover all the options. We can't be too precise because the information in the documents doesn't seem to have been recorded very diligently. He may have been confused with someone else. His entry in the ledger of his first camp Parchim, dated 26th June 1918, is marked "Nicht Verw." - Not wounded - whilst at his second camp Friedrichsfeld, dated 15th November 1918, his entry is as shown above - "G. G. Bein ü Knie" - Gun shot wound in the leg. Parchim camp records him as "Curry, Thomas Mark captured at Morchies 21/3/18"... .. Friedrichsberg camp shows "Currie, Thomas captured at Monchy 21/3/18". All other information - service no. regiment, date & place of birth, home address - is identical and correct at each camp. So someone was shot somewhere in the leg. It may, or may not, have been Thomas Mark Curry whose grandson I'm helping out here - but he can't confirm whether or not his grandfather was wounded because he was born long after Thomas Mark died. It looks like we'll have to rely on the memories of other family members. Thanks again for all the help Jef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 15 May , 2016 Share Posted 15 May , 2016 Hello Jef! Please don´t be too confused with german abbreviations. In this case, "nicht verw." means: "nicht verwendungsfähig" (not employable). That´ll be the proof, that he was seriously wounded. There are more abbr. of them: Kr. verw. (Kriegs verwendungsfähig) - employable for service at the front Garn. verw. (Garnisons verwendungsfähig) - employable for service in garrissons. Here is a map which shows the battle of march, 23. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 15 May , 2016 Share Posted 15 May , 2016 added ordre of battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 15 May , 2016 Share Posted 15 May , 2016 Another problem... Was he captured in Morchies or Monchy (Monchy-le-Preux)? You mentioned both villages. Here is a general map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 15 May , 2016 Share Posted 15 May , 2016 Both villages had a frontline march, 21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 15 May , 2016 Share Posted 15 May , 2016 Here are a few infos about the camps Parchim and Friedrichsfeld. Parchim near Berlin, and Friedrichsfeld near the dutch border... they carried him right through the whole empire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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