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Schwaben Redoubt - location


John_Hartley
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Am I right in thinking that Mill Road Cemetery is on its southern edge - and presumably along the same line including the Ulster Tower?

I'm trying to work out best camera angles to illustrate 6th Cheshires attack on St Pierre Divion on 13/11/16. Their assembly positions are given as being map ref. R.19.d.4.5 to R.19.d.1.9 (on map 57D.SE) which, if I've got my trench map reading correct would be from the Cemetery north-eastwards. They'd previously successfully attacked the Schwaben Redoubt on 14/10, hence my interest in getting that into the piccie as well, if possible.

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Gareth

Ta for that - although it leaves me still confused.

Is all of that the Redoubt, or only part of it? That would fit that part of it is to the northeast of the Cemetery. However, I'd also read that the Ulster Tower was built on the Redoubt's location and that seems to be well off it.

John

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Have you looked at these threads?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33981

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=128473

Whenever I have been on the ground I have always pointed out the redoubt as being the higher ground to the ENE of Ulster Tower (but that doesn't mean I am right!).

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John

Just to add to Gareth's posts there is some discussion of the location of the Schwaben redoubt in the later posts on this thread. Toby places it accurately and as I understand it the redoubt was further up the hill than either the Ulster Tower or Mill Road cemetery. On the Flikr composite that Gareth posted the redoubt is the long work in the third line more or less between the Ulster Tower and the large farm surrounded by the trees. It has two communication trenches running out of it to the front lines. I've snipped a bit of the photo and annotated it in blue with what I think is the correct location.

Pete.

post-101238-0-45167700-1462906309_thumb.

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Thanks gents, that's helped.

I've rechecked the map references and am sure the Cheshires' assembly positions ran roughly northeast from Mill Road Cemetery. That would have them nudging in to the Redoubt as indicated on Pete's blue line.

I think that makes my camera positions (A) from Connaught Cem towards the Ulster Tower adn Mill Road, (B) from Mill Road Cem towards St Pierre Divion and © from the Rue de Grandcourt right across the area - all assuming the lie of the land permits what I hope.

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Dear John,

I admire your tenacity to get it Just Right!

As an aside, my son and I walked up the hill at Peronne on a 1st of September, to get the feel of the successful but costly Australian attack on 1 Sep 1918: VC to Pte Currey, 53 Bn AIF and an MC to Coy Cdr Capt W. F. Lindsay, who was wounded in the leg (my grandfather).

I had previous gazed at a contemporary aerial photograph of the area, but did not bother to really try to re-enact the attack exactly.

We picked up many spent artillery shells, and also visited the nearby cemetery, which contains the headstones of three of the four 53 Bn AIF officers killed...

Keep up the good work!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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I'm with Kim on this one John, splendid attention to detail. As to the lie of the land I think the slope may be against you as this may show. This is taken from the entrance to Mill Road and while the view is stupendous (and illustrates Jack Sheldon's excellent talk on the Somme Shwerpunkt in April), St Pierre Divion is not visible. I've just looked at one of John Knight's photos taken from the Connaughts looking towards the Ulster Tower and that is similar. As to the track on the top of the hill I don't know although I am sure Toby has taken some excellent panoramic photos from up there. It might be worth checking out his content.

Pete.

post-101238-0-24959300-1462919960_thumb.

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Thanks gents, that's helped.

I've rechecked the map references and am sure the Cheshires' assembly positions ran roughly northeast from Mill Road Cemetery. That would have them nudging in to the Redoubt as indicated on Pete's blue line.

I think that makes my camera positions (A) from Connaught Cem towards the Ulster Tower adn Mill Road, ( B) from Mill Road Cem towards St Pierre Divion and © from the Rue de Grandcourt right across the area - all assuming the lie of the land permits what I hope.

I'm not so sure Connaught cemetery will give you much of a view from my recollection John but the others should be OK. The other aspect might be the track that climbs up from St. Pierre-Divion towards the route de Grandcourt. I will be there VERY soon to find out as I intend to photo the area near Capt Richard Kirk's death which I believe to be near to Maisie Lane, just north of the Ulster Tower.

Regards.

Reg

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Reg

Have we spoken previously about Kirk? Do you have a specific interest in him? I am writing a history of the battalion and would be interested in including any "snippets" you might have on him.

John

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Hi John

I don't know if you have access to Peter Barton's excellent 'The Somme: a new panoramic perspective' but on pages 120-121 there are then and now photos of your area of interest taken from the other side of the valley above Hamel from an OP in what was Charles Avenue. It might be an alternative photo opportunity.

Pete.

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For the past couple of years, I've parked along the farm track where the main communication trench to the 1st and 2nd lines are and then walked along it. Should have gone in the opposite direction !

I'll get it right in October.............

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Might this be of any help? It is part of an early architects plan for mill road cemetery. Plots overmarked in red relate to the current layout and the note within the red oval says "Existing reinforced concrete dugout to be removed." (see map in post number 5).

J.

post-108219-0-88182200-1463061957_thumb.

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Reg

Have we spoken previously about Kirk? Do you have a specific interest in him? I am writing a history of the battalion and would be interested in including any "snippets" you might have on him.

John

Hi John.

I couldn't say anything especially. He was one of 48 my wife has been researching who worked for the Manchester and County Bank. We bought a large photograph of the original memorial plaque to them. I found his story to be particularly interesting. We visited his grave today, together with his original burial location and the spot where he was killed. I'll speak to the wife to see what she has on him - she's been doing the family history stuff on several of the guys (no others in 6 Cheshire though) whereas I tend to concentrate on the military side of things. Apparently his sword was up for auction a couple of years ago - missed out on that one. I have some photos from our trip today if any would be of interest to you. It includes looking up the track towards Schwaben. I couldn't go all the way up there as we were short on time.

Regards.

Reg

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Reg

I'll drop you a PM about photos. And this is what I have on Kirk . I suspect you'll already have it but better twice than not at all. Bit jumbled up, I'm afraid

Kirk was the son of James & Mary and had been born in Whaley Bridge in 1885. He worked as a clerk for the Manchester & County Bank.

It is not known when Kirk was first commissioned but, on 4/4/10, he was promoted to Lieutenant and to Captain on 5/12/12.

Overseas, 10/11/14.

MC award (Gazette, 26/9/16) – “For conspicuous gallantry while leading a patrol in the enemy’s trenches. He shot three of the enemy in a dug-out and skilfully withdrew his patrol without any casualties on finding that the alarm had been given.”

Killed in Action, 13/11/16. Originally buried at Paisley Avenue Cemetery (map ref: 57d.Q.30.d.3.2) and later reinterred at Lonsdale Cemetery, Authuile.

Family home at The Ashes, Stalybridge. He is remembered on two war memorials in the town – the main civic one and the one at St Paul’s Church.

War diary mentions – 16/12/14 (allocation to company), 6/1/16 (hospital), 22/1/16 (rejoin hospital), 19/7/16 (raid), 7/9/16 (MC award), 13/11/16 (KiA)

Battalion history mentions – Page 3 (overseas), 12 (raid), 14 (raid), 16 (KiA)

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There's a photograph Click (not available online) of the opening of the Ulster Tower. The text from IWM says this " Opening of the 'Ulster Tower' at Thiepval on the Somme at the position once occupied by the Schwaben Redoubt. "

Mike

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I think there is an aerial shot of Mill Road and the tower in my copy of 'Before Endeavours Fade' and I think Rose Coombes says the chalk ghosts are the Schwaben Redoubt. Similarly inaccurate I fear.

Pete.

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Good find Mike; the panoramas are the ones that I mentioned from Peter Barton's book.

Pete.

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Reg

I'll drop you a PM about photos. And this is what I have on Kirk . I suspect you'll already have it but better twice than not at all. Bit jumbled up, I'm afraid

Kirk was the son of James & Mary and had been born in Whaley Bridge in 1885. He worked as a clerk for the Manchester & County Bank.

It is not known when Kirk was first commissioned but, on 4/4/10, he was promoted to Lieutenant and to Captain on 5/12/12.

Overseas, 10/11/14.

MC award (Gazette, 26/9/16) – “For conspicuous gallantry while leading a patrol in the enemy’s trenches. He shot three of the enemy in a dug-out and skilfully withdrew his patrol without any casualties on finding that the alarm had been given.”

Killed in Action, 13/11/16. Originally buried at Paisley Avenue Cemetery (map ref: 57d.Q.30.d.3.2) and later reinterred at Lonsdale Cemetery, Authuile.

Family home at The Ashes, Stalybridge. He is remembered on two war memorials in the town – the main civic one and the one at St Paul’s Church.

War diary mentions – 16/12/14 (allocation to company), 6/1/16 (hospital), 22/1/16 (rejoin hospital), 19/7/16 (raid), 7/9/16 (MC award), 13/11/16 (KiA)

Battalion history mentions – Page 3 (overseas), 12 (raid), 14 (raid), 16 (KiA)

Hi John.

We had most, but not all, of what you posted. Thanks for that. We have a bit more about him, including photo and will sort it out on our return. Also sent you a PM.

Regards.

Reg

Fattyowls: Pete, I'm the other Evertonian on this forum!

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Reg

Just replied to your PM. But, to add, would love to have a copy of the Kirk photo, please - assuming its decent (I've got one of him from the Stalybridge Reporter, 21/11/14, but its a bit manky.

John

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John

I was at the TNA today on my way back from France to read the WDs of the Army Troops Companies RE for 1916 in France and Flanders (that I did not have time to look at on my way out last Saturday). In the WD of 148 Army Troops Co RE (WO 95/547) I found an Operation Map 01/07/1916 showing the exact location of the Schwaben Redoubt. I was at the Ulster Tower last Sunday for a brew and the precise location has always interested me. I copied it with a view to scanning it and posting it on the Forum. It will appear on this thread tomorrow.

Brian

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Taken from my camera phone, I will scan at the library tomorrowpost-105981-0-72371700-1463902587_thumb.

EDIT On the original map in the WD of 148 ATC RE the Redoubt is marked in red. I have scanned the map and can forward it on if anyboby requires it.

Brian

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In order to eliminate any final doubts, this is an extract from a German map dated 2 Jul 16 and originally produced at 1:2,500. This shows every detail of the final shape and construction of the redoubt. The curved line which clips the western extremity of the redoubt is the track leading from Thiepval civilian cemetery to St Pierre Divion. This still exists and follows the exact same line. From this you can readily see that its placement is absolutely not related to either the Ulster Tower or Mill Road cemetery which sits above dugouts in the front line trench of Sub-Sector C3.

post-6447-0-10958700-1463918717_thumb.jp

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