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South Wales Borderers, date of enlistment?


daggers
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Angus Crawford died of wounds 21 September 1917 and was buried at Estaires. He was in 11th Battalion, South Wales Borderers, no: 37843.

Any suggestions please on when he might have enlisted. Apart from CWGC, SDGW and a soldier's effects entry, no records appear to have survived. [ He was from Liverpool, with a Scottish name and parentage, and served in the 'Welsh Army' !]

Daggers

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The Soldiers Effects Register shows he received a War Gratuity of £7 10s

Craig's WG Calculator gives an estimated enlisted date of Jan 1916.

Might be worth looking for records with similar numbers to confirm.

Russ

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Well, the few records that I've looked at indicate SWB numbers around 378xx appear to have been allotted in July/August 1916.

This indicates that he most likely enlisted with a different unit and was transferred to the SWB in July/August 1916. A few records with these SWB numbers show that men were being transferred from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. That would make more sense for someone from Liverpool. It seems his SDGW entry does not show a former unit.

Russ

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Thanks, both of you. The medal roll entry for this soldier shows only 11 Bn, SWB with a couple of Base depot spells, which may mean he was wounded, but only one number and no other unit. I'll have a shuffle round similar numbers.

D

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The transfers were in the UK before going overseas, so the former unit would not appear in the medal roll.

Russ

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Daggers,

The numbers i've looked at tend to point at enlistment into the South Wales Borderers in mid to late August 1916. I've found William Price 37813 enlists 2nd August 1916 and Ernest Dunning 37816 on 9th August 1916, both men enlist straight into the SWB.

I cant see any indication that he previously served with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, i've found quite a few men transferring into the RWF from SWB and being given 37*** aand 38*** service numbers. Can you point me in the direction of the records you found Russ.

As you know Daggers he served with the 11th Btn.

The main recruitment/ recuperation battalion for the SWB, the 3rd Btn was based at Hightown in Liverpool for much of the War.

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£7 10 (net) war gratuity gives £9 10 (gross) with the service gratuity adjusted (figures from the soldiers effects register)

For a private this gives 21 months qualifying war time service - if he died in Sep 17 then it gives enlistment no later than Jan 1916.

This date is a latest date as, if he had any breaks in his qualifying service, the date could be pushed back further. In the majority of cases though there were no breaks in service and the gratuity date holds true.

A SWB number from July/Aug 16 has to be a later number for him and cannot be his original service number. 6 months or so training at home and then shipped off to France with a battalion who needed men,

Craig

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As noted above 37813 2nd August 1916 direct to SWB

John William Thomas enlisted 15/11/1915 and joined 21st RWF 18/11/15 Service Number 29446

Posted 19th(?) RWF 1/1/1915

Posted SWB (14th Bn) 29/8/1916 renumbered 37848

[Then to the Depot 31/8/1916 when the 14th became a TR Bn and eventually to Labour Corps April 1917 i.e. on formation of the LC.

There is a note out of sequence that a shows between the RWF and the SWB on 3/3/1916 he was posted to 23 Liverpool Regiment a home service works Bn, but whether the date is a clerical error or not impossible to say.]

However, confirmation 37843 was posted to the SWB August 1916, probably at the back end. I'd suggest if he went to the 14th he too was posted back to the Depot before being sent overseas and posted to an active service Bn.

SDGW has a 37841 John Malan 6th SWB born and enlisted Liverpool previously 41603 RWF Don’t know if soldiers effects gives a similar enlistment date to Crawford

Ken

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Thanks guys,

Certainly learnt a couple of things regarding SWB service numbers and filled some gaps in my list.

I'll have to read up on the War Gratuity threads as it seems a good indicator of when men enlisted.

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Can you point me in the direction of the records you found Russ.

Ken, above has given you an example.

Another example is Robert Roberts (see image below), enlisted 19th Bn RWF on 15/02/1915 and given RWF Number 28282

He was transferred to the 14th Bn SWB on 18/07/1916 and given the SWB number 37801.

These service record examples, together with the predicted Jan 1916 enlistment date from his War Gratuity, was the reason why I posted in post #3 that perhaps it was likely he indeed did enlist in Jan 1916 - but to the RWF and then was transferred to the SWB in July/August.

Regards

Russ

post-71872-0-39826300-1462382484_thumb.j

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SDGW has a 37841 John Malan 6th SWB born and enlisted Liverpool previously 41603 RWF Don’t know if soldiers effects gives a similar enlistment date to Crawford

John Malan (Malam in CWGC) was KiA on 15/04/1918. He received a WG of £9, which gives an estimated enlistment date of March 1916. This date does not accord with the known July/August 1916 dates for allotting SWB numbers around 378xx (as per previous posts).

But here we also know that he served earlier with the RWF (with number 41603). So we can ask ourselves the question - when were RWF numbers in the range 4160x allotted?

Records show that men were joining the RWF with numbers near 4160x in April 1916 (specifically the 21/RWF).

So this is all self-consistent - noting that an actual enlistment date of a month either way of the WG predicted enlistment date is not an uncommon finding - Craig can give a good explanation of that.

Regards

Russ

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Thanks for that Russ,

The knowledge of fellow forum members never ceases to amaze me.

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John Malan (Malam in CWGC) was KiA on 15/04/1918. He received a WG of £9, which gives an estimated enlistment date of March 1916. This date does not accord with the known July/August 1916 dates for allotting SWB numbers around 378xx (as per previous posts).

But here we also know that he served earlier with the RWF (with number 41603). So we can ask ourselves the question - when were RWF numbers in the range 4160x allotted?

Records show that men were joining the RWF with numbers near 4160x in April 1916 (specifically the 21/RWF).

So this is all self-consistent - noting that an actual enlistment date of a month either way of the WG predicted enlistment date is not an uncommon finding - Craig can give a good explanation of that.

Regards

Russ

It should always be either spot on or a month short of the actual. It's down to the fact they used calendar months for the first 12 months and then full or part months for each subsequent month of entitlement.

Whether or not this effect occurs with the calculation depends on when a man died in a month compared to the day in the month he enlisted.

Craig

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I am also most impressed with the knowledge shared on this forum. Many thanks to all contributors.

D

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