Shot at Dawn at St Jans Cappel in the Ypres Salient

[MotherMave]

Dear Forum, Can anyone tell me where a soldier who was shot at dawn at St Jans Cappel in the Ypres Salient would have actually been shot? Many thanks in advance, Mavis

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Hi Mavis, who is the soldier in question?

[burlington]

Sorry Mavis but you MUST give the experts whatever information you have. If you don't have anything else apart from what you have told us, perhaps you should investigate a bit further.

Martin

[IPT]

With the Flintshire connection, I expect it's 10459 Cpl George Povey, 1st Cheshire Regiment.

Thomas Highgate was also shot at dawn there

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

Im guessing

Corporal George Povey.

Offence of leaving his post.

He was executed at Saint-Jans-Cappel in France on February 11, 1915.

Regards,

Graeme

[John_Hartley]

Mavis

I recall similar "precise location" questions in the past. They never seem to be recorded. If it is recorded anywhere, then it'll be in the bloke's court martial file at the National Archives.

John

(EDIT: IPT and Graeme were posting while I was typing. Assuming it is Povey, then the specific location isnt recorded in the court martial file. I had a passing interest in this case as his conviction seemed to be the cause of what was described as a "feud" between members of his battalion and those of 6th Cheshires. I've never been able to get to the bottom of the specifics of the feud. )

[MotherMave]

Many apologies to everyone, I just thought someone might have known where in St. Jans Cappell, ie. the Town Hall. Apologies again for not giving more details, yes it is George POVEY, bless him. I wanted more about the precise details, which as you have pointed out would have been in his Court Marshall, but it doesn't really tell you exactly where. I would like to know more, as in Poperinge, where you can see the cell etc.

[Kitchener's Bugle]

This is an excellent link.

http://www.flintshirewarmemorials.com/memorials/connahs-quay/connahs-quay-soldiers/g-povey/

The defendants did not even have defence counsel during the FGCM.

It looks like he was buried in an unmarked location, and likely executed in an exact location that was never recorded.

[Mark Hone]

The exact locations of execution are sometimes known. For example, Private W Smith of 3/5th Lancashire Fusiliers was shot at the back of Reninghelst Church in October 1917 and buried in the nearby British Cemetery.

Without wishing to reopen that debate, there are some doubts as to whether the 'condemned cells' preserved at Poperinge were in fact used for that purpose. There have been a few previous threads on this.

[John_Hartley]

The defendants did not even have defence counsel during the FGCM.

As I understand it, it wasn't required at that time (think it changed later in that year). That said, it would have been hard for even the likes of Michael Mansfield QC to have argued against a guilty verdict in this case.

[Kitchener's Bugle]

The verdict Perhaps.... but clemency for the sentence is another thing entirely

[MotherMave]

Thank you everyone for your input, I would just love to know where in St. Jan Cappel the men where executed. The men returned to their post with no loss of their equipment, it was the fact that George was a Corporal that sealed his fate, they set the bar with him as a deterant to others, he was supposed to send everyone back, but it was cold and they were asleep at the time, also the Germans were given to spooking them. Anyway now it is too late for George. Thank you once again. Mavis

[John_Hartley]

it was the fact that George was a Corporal that sealed his fate,

Indeed. There's a longstanding principle with the British justice system that people in positions of authority/trust are likely to be punished more severely than others, for the same crime. Still very much in evidence today. For example the supermarket employee is likely to be punished more severely for nicking stuff, than your run of the mill shoplifter.