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Remembered Today:

Pt. Harry Farr. shot at dawn, Carnoy, Oct. 18th. 1916


20th Division

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The two unknowns with dates of death may have been originally brought in and buried unknown and only a date of death on the marker (being stripped of their possessions by the enemy and their id discs perished) or all that survived of their marker in the cemetery was their date of death.

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Would a trench map be likely to show HQ or even cemetries in the locality?

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Carnoy is one of those frustrating locations that appears on the edge of a map. In this case, it is in the corner of 62c. I managed last night to get onto the PC briefly and to find a 62c map that shows the cemeteries and a corresponding 62d map the same (they are from 1916 and 1917). I cropped and stitched the relevant squares together from both maps last night but the hour was late. There was something else I wanted to look at/for regarding the maps. I'm not on a PC now and I have to go to work.

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I have been stunned by the amount of research resources you experts have been able to access! THANK YOU all for the time and effort you are putting in,it makes my efforts seem quite puny and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it all. I have just been into Chloe Dewe Mathews site of SAD photos. So moving---thank you for the link. I agree with the conclusions that Harry Farr probably lies at rest somewhere in CARNOY cemetery and hope that it might even be possible someday to add another moving photo of an actual "SAD site". Gratefully. Dave.

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I read on another site that only three of those executed have no known graves.

Johnboy

Way out I'm afraid, a cursory glance at what I have shows 33 of which: -

3 x in Ghana, 1 x Sierra Leone, 4 x Basra, 1 Helles, 1 x Egypt and 1 x Nigeria, of 22 in France, 14 of them pre-date 7th March 1915, the other 8 are spread, 4 x 1916, 3 x 1917 and 1 x 1918. So a big concentration early in the War.

Sam

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Ron,

So, we are looking for 'The Far Away Tree'?

David

I think you have just gone down the Slippery Slip!

Ron

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Found another post on here about the 30 UK SADs with no known grave plus one with no commemoration at all. Almost the whole thread is about the subject based on Pte, Highgate. Apparently the IWGC tried to locate/identify his grave but failed. Perhaps they did the same for the others.

Highgate has service records which show Died GSW.

CARNOY

Been looking through the GRRF images and a few things to note;

  1. IWGC did the main bulk of the work 11th - 12th Aug 1920. Then nine more phases from Jan 1921 - April 1925.
  2. Pre-1920 (war time) records had recorded/ identified men who turned up post-war elsewhere or possibly hadn't died at all.
  3. These 'identified' men were crossed out and in some cases substituted with UBS (unidentified British soldier). This increases the number of unknowns.
  4. The 'known to be buried here but locations unknown' are all from the 1921-1925 phase.
  5. Some of the August 1920 work refers to previous Reports, Schedules, Sheets and Sect.H Reports.

If the IWGC tried to find Highgate's grave the CWGC may have something on Farr. I suspect all the sheets, reports etc are long gone but you never know.

TEW

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The two squares are stitched together as shown below and as a result some of the information has been cropped out of the margins and I have given that below too. The map is confusing because the overlap causes F18 (from 62D) and A13 (from 63C) to be sharing parts of the same square. So, F5 a & c belong to square 18 and A13 b & d belong to square 13 - hope that makes sense.

On the left is from 62D 1916 square F
Map 62D F5.d.9.9 Dantzig Alley Br Cem.

On the right is from 62C 1917 square A
Map 63C A13.d.5.5 (approx) Carnoy Br Cem

I have also annotated the names of two small woods on the map in purple (La Guerre Wood) and green (Lapree Wood) and Bois Caftet is already named. Why a wood would be mentioned and where Mr Wilson got that information from does not seem to be shown on his blog. However, taking into account the close proximity of some wooded areas to the cemetery, the idea might not be that far-fetched. The information regarding him refusing a blindfold in the same blog...either some literary license being taken regarding these comments or, it came from an account from someone/somewhere.


carnoy%20map%20stitch%20annotated_zpsmij

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Thanks Sam. Can you give a link to the figures?

I made my own list a while ago listing name (including variations on CWGC and MIC), number, rank, age, unit, offence, execution date, PRO ref for their Courts Martial record, any mention of execution on the MIC and whether one exists (last 2 items for UK men only), details of commuted Death sentences where applicable and finally where buried/commemorated.

For the last column, i hadn't defined whether it was a grave or a commemoration so as I was pushed for for time when I posted, I simply counted those I had listed on "memorials", when I get the chance to double check CWGC I'll update the figures.

Sam

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As previously mentioned, Divisional HQ was at Minden Post - F.18.c.1.1. Would the APM have been there too?

Regards

Chris

I have maps that show locations of APM and they are few and far between but I have not found a similar map for this location (Carnoy). Of course their location might be mentioned in one of the Divisional or Brigade War Diaries. I can find an OH map that shows Minden Post and also indicates that a unit was occupying Caftet Wood at the northern end which is dated with regard to the attack 1st July and that is as much as I can glean at this time.

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plus one with no commemoration at all.

Who is the uncommemorated one, please?

If we havn't already got him in our system, In From the Cold Project will submit his name to CWGC. Must admit, I thought we'd got them all but maybe not.

John

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I note it's not yet been metioned but Carnoy MC contains the graves of Pte 23992 Ernest Harris, C Coy 10th Lancs Fusiliers (W0 71/542) and Dvr 96498 Robert Murray, A/81st Bty RFA (WO 71/545). Both men were deserters and from the 17th Division and both were shot side by side on the 3rd Feb 1917 they now lay side by side in plots Z 11 and Z 10 respectively.

It may also be worth looking at the concentration burials to Danzig Alley BC and Peronne Road Cemetery where the smaller cemeteries from around Carnoy were interred.

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John

Thanks for spotting that 'non-commemoration' from my link is actually 2 commemorated.

With the absence of APM diaries I'm trying to locate some higher level diaires eg Divisional Assistant Adjutant-General, I have one for the period - WO95/26/1 Branches and Services: General Staff which has a General Routine Order, AG Branch Sept 1915 which has a list of men shot Aug-Sept 1916. No locations given. Not even an entry for 18/10/1916

And ditto for Director General Medical Services, Deputy Director Medical Services

Can't imagine how the IWGC dealt with things circa 1920. Somehow soldiers were identified and buried there during ther war but post-war work proved the identification was wrong so they became UBS.

TEW

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As previously mentioned, Divisional HQ was at Minden Post - F.18.c.1.1. Would the APM have been there too?

Regards

Chris

Sorry, I'm quoting a quote.

6th Div HQ set up in Bernafay Woods on 8/10/1916, nothing in diary says it moved before 18th

6th DIV ADMS was at Minden Post

TEW

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Hi,

At "Minden Post F.18.c.1.1" the ADMS diary entry for 9th October reads "Div. H.Q.* moved to F.18.c.1.1 with Battle H.Qs at S.28.a.4.4 ...". Sorry, I should have written the entry in full. What I was thinking is that there are appendices in the diary for other dates, that seem to link the location of the APM to the location of the Divisional HQ. If Harry was held in the custody of the APM I was speculating that would have been at the rear HQ, rather than "Battle" HQ - which if it were to be the case, would bring into play the possibility that he was shot in Caftet Wood, as the nearest wooded area.

Apologies for causing any confusion.

Regards

Chris

Edit:

*I may well have misunderstood, and he's referring to his own move there.

As S.28.a.4.4 (Bernafay Woods?) is (I think) about 15 miles away from Carnoy, I would guess that it has little relevance to him being executed at Carnoy. I fear that the OP will sadly never find an answer.

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Hi,

At "Minden Post F.18.c.1.1" the ADMS diary entry for 9th October reads "Div. H.Q.* moved to F.18.c.1.1 with Battle H.Qs at S.28.a.4.4 ...". Sorry, I should have written the entry in full. What I was thinking is that there are appendices in the diary for other dates, that seem to link the location of the APM to the location of the Divisional HQ. If Harry was held in the custody of the APM I was speculating that would have been at the rear HQ, rather than "Battle" HQ - which if it were to be the case, would bring into play the possibility that he was shot in Caftet Wood, as the nearest wooded area.

Apologies for causing any confusion.

Regards

Chris

Edit:

*I may well have misunderstood, and he's referring to his own move there.

As S.28.a.4.4 (Bernafay Woods?) is (I think) about 15 miles away from Carnoy, I would guess that it has little relevance to him being executed at Carnoy. I fear that the OP will sadly never find an answer.

If the OP has evidence that he was executed at Carnoy and that the northern end of Caftet Wood was occupied by a unit in early July it seems to indicate that a clearance at that part of the wood might have taken place. I'll look up which unit that was, as their WD might indicate whether they were under canvas or whether some structuring had taken place to accommodate them. The previous execution I was making reference to, used a hut as a temporary cell that was at the APMs quarters. The hour is late and I will do a little more digging around on it tomorrow (which is actually later today now).

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The evidence for 'Carnoy' comes from the WO71 file and Farr's death cert.

S.28.a.4.4 is just to the west of Bernafay. The way that the 6th Div ADMS wrote 'Div HQ at Minden Post' is mis-leading. He must mean 6th Div ADMS.

I think with the Battle of Transloy happening that day Minden Post was an ADS for wounded troops. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be holding Farr there (or any 6th Div HQs) for his execution.

Not entirely sure if 6th DAC were active on 18th, seem to recall the diary is one page for all of October with 'No change' as the entry. perhaps that's why the job fell to Anderson.

I think Minden Post is a little way from the southwest of Caftet Wood.

TEW

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Thanks Seaforths,TEW and clk for this information.

Just to clarify---did DAC's have there own MO?---or were they the same MO's attached to the Brigade artillery generally?

I'm guessing that if Harry Farr had been in custody for some time in, possibly, a rear HQ ( say, in or near Mindenpost or Caftet wood) would they have risked moving him elsewhere, especially to a more forward position,during the uncertainties of the battle of Transloy and so close to his execution date? Maybe I have misunderstood your analyses.

You do seem to be taking the location of his imprisonment, therefore his execution, that much closer than it's ever been taken before. Really grateful for all your research. Dave.

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The evidence for 'Carnoy' comes from the WO71 file and Farr's death cert.

S.28.a.4.4 is just to the west of Bernafay. The way that the 6th Div ADMS wrote 'Div HQ at Minden Post' is mis-leading. He must mean 6th Div ADMS.

I think with the Battle of Transloy happening that day Minden Post was an ADS for wounded troops. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be holding Farr there (or any 6th Div HQs) for his execution.

Not entirely sure if 6th DAC were active on 18th, seem to recall the diary is one page for all of October with 'No change' as the entry. perhaps that's why the job fell to Anderson.

I think Minden Post is a little way from the southwest of Caftet Wood.

TEW

The FA diaries should show who was where in terms of ADS/MDS. I'm not entirely sure where the line was on that date but in the previous execution I was making reference to, that the APM quarters and cemetery were in close proximity to each other at that particular location made it convenient to hold the man in a make-shift cell there. Daylight burials and movement being a risky business the final holding place of Harry to the cemetery may have been the deciding factor and finding a suitable spot nearby for the deed and a place to hold him. In which case while the Military Police would have been in attendance, the location of their HQ at a nearby place may not have been relevant.

In the case I was referring to the site seemed to be selected because of it's proximity to the cemetery that the APM quarters were situated nearby, possibly no more than a convenient coincidence and they were able to adapt a cell for him there, that was also near the cemetery. The grave must have been pre-prepared as the Padre states; 15 minutes after he was last talking to him, the earth was flattened over his grave and appears he was transported via stretcher. The site for the execution had similarly been constructed/adapted; three sides of a square made of sandbags and a stout post at the centre.

Having reflected and gone over this in my head, the location of the APM might be something of a distraction here. Thank you for the confirmation regarding the location being Carnoy. That they would move him from Bernafay to Carnoy and back to Bernafay would be highly unlikely.

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Thanks Seaforths,TEW and clk for this information.

Just to clarify---did DAC's have there own MO?---or were they the same MO's attached to the Brigade artillery generally?

I'm guessing that if Harry Farr had been in custody for some time in, possibly, a rear HQ ( say, in or near Mindenpost or Caftet wood) would they have risked moving him elsewhere, especially to a more forward position,during the uncertainties of the battle of Transloy and so close to his execution date? Maybe I have misunderstood your analyses.

You do seem to be taking the location of his imprisonment, therefore his execution, that much closer than it's ever been taken before. Really grateful for all your research. Dave.

DACs did have their own MO but while they were with the DAC at the same time they were also RAMC and therefore they did get about a bit and mix with their own kind so they were not totally detached/isolated in their role

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