Pt. Harry Farr. shot at dawn, Carnoy, Oct. 18th. 1916

[Ron Clifton]

A medical officer would not be "in charge" or in command of a combatant unit. He would be in medical charge of the men in it.

Ron

[TEW]

I've been through the 6th DAC diary 4/8/14 - 14/8/19 and the only mention is that the MO joined HQ 9/8/14 at Waterford, Ireland. Diary is quite good at mentioning officers coming and going but no guarantee it's 100%.

As they disembarked 12th - 13th Sept 1914 the MO would have a 1914 Star and BWM/Vict. The likely Anderson would appear to be Alan Douglas Anderson although only a Lt. for 14Star. Gazetted to temp Lt. RAMC 12/8/14. (Issue:28881 Page:6798).

Not sure that someone about to become a temp Lt would have been MO to a DAC.

A D Anderson was a Kiwi who had trained at University College Hospital, London. He served in WW1 with RAMC 1914-15, then MO on troopship Ulimaroa and with NZMC at Walton-on-Thames. Was in UK on 1911 census.

If those dates are right he seems an unlikely candidate. He does have an Archway record, not available online.

I'd go back to the one IDd by Keith in post#2, unless he got promoted?

Will check 6th ADMS dairy

TEW

[stevem49]

9th Battalion Sherwood Foresters chap who deserted his pals has a grave, therefore they were treated no differently from any other one of the dead.

He is on Thiepval, like the thousands of others that died. That is enough

[seaforths]

The extracted material is indeed in class WO154 but there are no files in that class relating to 6th Division, nor to XIV Corps of which 6 Div was a part in Sep/Oct 1916.

The battalion War Diary is in file WO95/1618 (possibly /2) in the National Archives. It should be available to download from their website, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk for about £3.50. There may also be relevant information in the divisional A&Q diary in WO95/1586.

Ron

Thank you Ron, it was some time ago when I was looking at this file series and I guess I must have just struck lucky.

Would it be worth looking for a Padre's records or accounts? I haven't done any research in that area so I don't know what there might be that would be worth looking for/checking out. I've only seen one such account published in a book but he visited the man often while he was in custody and was, if I recall correctly, with him most of the night before and on the morning itself. A Padre, potentially would have had more contact with Harry than an RAMC officer...just a few thoughts.

[KevinBattle]

There is the Shot At Dawn Memorial at Alrewas, if no actual location can be pinpointed, so would that suffice?

[johnboy]

I don't think the question is about commemoration but more where he was buried. After a CM you would think that his burial location was recorded somewhere. As has been said earlier, it is probable that the grave has been lost over time.

[TEW]

Still ploughing through 6th Div. ADMS.

Just thought if Capt. A Anderson signed the death certificate where is that certificate? Can't see a GRO one for him which there should be.

FMP may have him in an index 'British nationals armed forces deaths'.

TEW

[johnboy]

Last entry?

[TEW]

Very good, that's certainly him!

Easy for me to say as I'm not paying but think it would be an obvious route for David/20thdivision to get his death cert. Very unlikely to have place of burial shown and place of death may just be Carnoy. Still like to see Anderson's signature to help ID him a bit further.

Can these be bought from GRO as usual ones?

Army List Oct 1916 under RAMC only has;

A J Anderson 1709f

A S Anderson 1702c

A Anderson 1699c, 1705k

A Anderson 1738

My previous A N Anderson had left the RAMC and joined NZ medical by then

Still wondering why Putkowski is the only one to have the 6th DAC suffix although he does say it's verbatim so have to assume the other transcriptions omitted it. Just hope it wasn't DAG or something else.

TEW

[seaforths]

Just a few snippets of information from the reference I made earlier to Padres attending these men. This particular man was held at an 'improvised cell at the APM's quarters'. He was buried afterwards in what seems to be the cemetery they were using at that time which happened to be 'a few hundred yards away' and in the words of the Padre '...the earth had ben pressed down over his grave, and I was signing the label for the identifying peg at his head.' I would suggest that Harry's final or initial resting place would have been in a cemetery that they were using at the time. Sometimes, these were listed in an order within Bde. and/or Divisional War Diaries.

[stevem49]

Has the CWGC been contacted to see if they have the original grave location?

[seaforths]

Very good, that's certainly him!

Easy for me to say as I'm not paying but think it would be an obvious route for David/20thdivision to get his death cert. Very unlikely to have place of burial shown and place of death may just be Carnoy. Still like to see Anderson's signature to help ID him a bit further.

Can these be bought from GRO as usual ones?

Army List Oct 1916 under RAMC only has;

A J Anderson 1709f

A S Anderson 1702c

A Anderson 1699c, 1705k

A Anderson 1738

My previous A N Anderson had left the RAMC and joined NZ medical by then

Still wondering why Putkowski is the only one to have the 6th DAC suffix although he does say it's verbatim so have to assume the other transcriptions omitted it. Just hope it wasn't DAG or something else.

TEW

The copies you get from the GRO are not scans of the originals they are Certified True Copies so they have copied the information from the original into a modern true copy and they are unsigned. They don't say who signed the original certificate and I suppose you would have to be quite specific in requesting that information from them. The ones I have are quite vague in terms of place of death and on the ones I have (which are for POWs), just state 'Germany'.

[20th Division]

A huge thank you to all those who have given me ideas and suggestions on where to go next for information, although most have kindly already checked these sources for me, and it seems further research will probably draw the same blank as to Pt Harry Farr's exact place of execution in Carnoy. It seems that Captain Anderson's file at Kew has now been checked plus TEW has kindly checked 6th DAC,HQ and artillery records for any references. I agree with Tew's re the prosaic comments of James Wilson re Harry Farr being led into some woods to be shot. This is of course one of the most likely scenarios but completely unsubstantiated. Caftet woods ( now in private ownership) is just across the road from MINDEN POST,if indeed a connection can ever be proposed.I agree with Ron Clifton that Harry Farr's body would have been treated with the same respect as any other soldier and his grave destroyed by later conflict in the area. Also,thank you TEW for your comments and thoughts re Carnoy cemetery POSSIBLY/PROBABLY being Harry Farr's final resting place as one of the unknown soldiers. I visited this cemetery two years ago with some family members and,in the absence of any other information about Harry Farr, laid a wreath here from my daughter-in-law to his memory, not realising that this could be his final resting place. In reply to CRAIG's final question, Yes, I have a copy of Harry Farr's original death certificate signed by Capt Anderson and it definitely states he was " M.O. I/c 6th DAC". Once again---THANK YOU to all responders and for sharing your ideas, time and expertise. Dave.

[20th Division]

Sorry---Got back late last night from a couple of days away and hadn't realised there were two pages of communication when I posted todays response earlier ( 12:26). Firstly, I didn't realise that you were checking for a copy of the original death certificate, which I have in my files already. It was from this source that I was able to quote the name of the attending MO and his unit at the time. Apologies of I did not make this clear at the beginning.

TEW and Seaforths--again THANKS---yes The Padre sounds like a good lead, I hadn't considered that. If Harry Farr was held in or near the APM's H.Q. would that unit have there own diary? I guess the place of execution would have been close-by. Any ideas how I can get the name of Padre? I am certain, from Harrys' families background that he would have been non-conformist so presumably he was a Padre from the divisional C of E team, I believe non-conformists would have been served by them.Thanks for these TEW and Seaforths--some good lines for research. Dave.

[David Filsell]

Am I alone in being unable to square

"Private Farr would live to see none of that, for he was being taken into the woods that day for his own execution..."

It certainly doesn't seem to square with any other account I have read or have I missed some thing?.

[TEW]

Am I alone in being unable to square

"Private Farr would live to see none of that, for he was being taken into the woods that day for his own execution..."

It certainly doesn't seem to square with any other account I have read or have I missed some thing?.

I took that quote from HERE. I didn't include the quote it was alluding to which was also by James Wilson. Hence my 'prosaic' suggestion.

At first light on 16 October 1916, Private Harry Farr of the 1st Battalion, the West Yorkshire Regiment, was led by his colleagues into a forest in the region of the Somme River in France. The eponymous allied offensive, the most bloody battle of the most bloody war in British history, was nearing its end. For all the blood spilt, the achievement of the battle had been limited to say the least: little ground had been gained, the general stalemate would thereafter resume, and the war would not be over for another two years and several million more deaths.

Then

Private Farr would live to see none of that,.................etc

I also note from Putkowski, I certify that the sentence was duly carried out at Carnoy at 6 a.m. on 18th October 1916 [signed] A.J.D. Simey Capt. A.P.M. VI Divn.

According to Putkowski, Simey also served with 6th DAC but I'm not sure when. I've had a look for Provost diaries for 6 Div or 14 Corps and not seen any on Discovery. I don't think he would have been APM and with 6th DAC.

Anyway, the WO95/1592/2 part3 does have a ref. to a Capt Anderson for 28/11/1915. I think the context suggests he was with DAC or Artillery.

ADMS

Instructed Capt. Anderson who had returned off leave to proceed tomorrow to [6 Div?] RA HQ at St. Momelin to ascertain locality and where billets of 12th Bde.

RFA.

Not really sure of a connection to Minden Post or Caftet woods. Wherever he was held by the APM was probably close to the execution site. Both probably in Carnoy.

Have you seen SAD photos by Chloe Dewe Mathews, she has photographed locations of execution sites, well researched for times, locations from lots of sources. Can't find a full list online, click on a picture and move mouse across image, this reveals details of soldier. 11 men SAD in former abattoir, Mazingarbe, nothing prosaic to be said about that. School yards and town halls also feature.

I'm not sure that Anderson's file at TNA has been checked by anyone here, not likely to say much but you never know.

I tried to find a way to extract all the 'unknowns' for Carnoy from CWGC, don't think you can search for unknowns. Perhaps the CWGC could help with that? Sometimes grave registration forms mentions that an unknown had a eg Lancs Fusiliers button.

They have 827 named men, although they say 826. An additional 30 are unidentified, I think some of these could be eliminated with the help of CWGC. Nothing to suggest this cemetery was shelled or otherwise disrupted. It was taken over by the enemy in Spring 1918 but they used it for their dead.

I guess he would have had an original wooden marker/cross which somehow got lost.

TEW

[David Filsell]

Is it truly likely that Farr was taken into a wood and shot? I was under the impression that things were better organised by the army, not undertaken in an ad hoc way.

[Ron Clifton]

It is quite possible that he was "taken into a wood" if there was no outdoor wooden post to which he could be fastened. I can think of no other obvious reason.

There do not appear to be any War Diaries for divisional APMs in the catalogue to WO95, but they were supposed to keep them so they may be included with the divisional A&Q diary. For 6 Div this is WO95/1586 for 1916-17. Nor did chaplains keep war diaries, as far as I know, but each brigade normally had four chaplains, one C of E, one RC, one Free Church and one extra "of the denomination to which the majority of the men belonged", so it is possible that Farr was attended by a Free Church minister. Contrary to popular understanding, chaplains were not formally attached to infantry battalions as MOs were, but it is quite likely that the brigade chaplains were allocated in this way for convenience.

Ron

[TEW]

I doubt a wood was involved at all, more than likely taken from his cell in Carnoy and against the nearest wall and then to the nearest cemetery.

These 11 men shot at former abattoir:

Private James Graham 07:22 / 21.12.1915.

Private John Docherty 07:12 / 15.02.1916.

Private John Jones Time unknown / 24.2.1916.

Private Arthur Dale Time unknown / 3.3.1916.

Private C. Lewis Time unknown / 11.3.1916.

Private Anthony O’Neill Time unknown / 30.4.1916.

Private John William Hasemore 04:25 / 12.5.1916.

Private J. Thomas Time unknown / 20.5.1916.

Private William Henry Burrell Time unknown / 22.5.1916.

Private Edward A. Card Time unknown / 22.9.1916.

Private C. Welsh Time unknown / 6.3.1918.

Interesting to find out if all these were buried in nearest cemetery and/or where they were held before.

Quote by CHLOE DEWE MATHEWS

Whether slag-heap, back of a primary school, churchyard, town abattoir or half-kempt hedgerow, these places have been altered by a traumatic event.

Well worth a look I think.

TEW

[TEW]

Ron, there are a few in WO154 but not for the right division. Some for 62nd Div, 9 Corps and 5 Corps and other theatres

TEW

[clk]

Hi,

...I tried to find a way to extract all the 'unknowns' for Carnoy from CWGC, don't think you can search for unknowns. Perhaps the CWGC could help with that? Sometimes grave registration forms mentions that an unknown had a eg Lancs Fusiliers button.

They have 827 named men, although they say 826. An additional 30 are unidentified, I think some of these could be eliminated with the help of CWGC. Nothing to suggest this cemetery was shelled or otherwise disrupted. It was taken over by the enemy in Spring 1918 but they used it for their dead...

One of the forum Canadian Pals published a way to extract all the records for a particular cemetery from the CWGCs cloud archive - see here. To be honest though, I got a bit lost!

Regards

Chris

[TEW]

Wow, followed that process and have succeeded in downloading all the GRRF for Carnoy in a matter of seconds. In case anyone else wants to try this I only used firefox, chrome not needed but the downloadthemall feature is a plug-in that was not part of the default install of firefox. I could simplify the process, all looked very techy but actually quite simple.

Anyway, I have 68 GRRF records. I've seen 2 Unknowns that have a date of death given, so there's 2 eliminated.

May have to try the concentrations as well.

TEW

[clk]

Hi TEW,

I'm glad it worked. I may have to give it another go!

Did it pull down any exhumation reports?

Regards

Chris

[seaforths]

I tend to agree with David that there would be some prior preparation and suspect that his grave would have been prepared and ready for his burial in the nearest cemetery - and that the cemetery was probably Carnoy. It did occur to me looking at the unknowns of that cemetery yesterday in terms of the number, that there was possibly some significant damage to the cemetery since Harry's death that resulted in some unidentified men. Sometimes, the Germans would move and re-bury bodies or bury bodies that had been exposed due to shellfire etc. and there are some records of these in ICRC but not in this case. It is also quite possible that Harry was not wearing a tunic when buried that might have been used as a means of identification later. An account of a Medical Officer in attendance at an execution later in the war indicates that; he was responsible for accurately locating the heart and affixing the target to the man's shirt over the position of the heart. The shirts were deliberately very tight fitting so that the shirt did not flutter in any breeze and the target remained accurately in place.

With regard to Padres, I agree with Ron and the Padre I was referring to in earlier posts seems to have been affiliated or attached to a particular Bn. but because of the man's denomination, was in attendance with another Bn. It is disappointing that there are no diary records for APMs or Padres and in the absence of those, it would take a lot of digging around to try to locate information. Firstly, I have often seen Church Parades/Sunday Services mentioned in War Diaries that give the names of the Padres carrying out the services. It would then be another task to find out if any of them went into print and produced a book either privately or publicly. In the absence of those, a check of regimental museums and Imperial War Museum to see if a particular Padre has a private diary/memoir with those. In the absence of information there, it would come down to tracking a Padre to his local area/home and looking for smaller local archives that might hold a diary or memoir from him. All of this might draw a blank because if something was in existence, the chances are that it probably would have been seen and surfaced by now.

[TEW]

A bit of cross reffing the unknowns may shed some light on things. There are 'unknowns' and named men who are known to be buried there but location unknown.

Some of those identified with unknown locations may therefore be the 'unknowns'. I think!!

Quite why 2 unknowns have a date of death is a conundrum. I can't seem to find any concentrations for Carnoy which at least keeps things easier.

The GRRF sheets downloaded as a numerical sequence of jpgs which roughly equate to chronological use of the cemetery. But there are no unknowns for Oct 1916. No identifying buttons etc noted.

Germans were removed circa 1920, plots marked as vacant.

I've also looked on Discovery at higher level medical services, DDMS, DADMS diaries but some don't seem to be indexed to a particular corps so a 14 Corps one may exist. I think the Battle of Transloy was in full swing, 6 Div. ADMS diary more concerned with evacuations and moving posts.

TEW