20th Division Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Hope you can help please. I am still researching whereabouts in CARNOY Pt Harry Farr was executed, at dawn on 18th Oct 1916. My daughter-in-law is Harry Farr's Gt Gt Niece. So far all I know is that he has no known grave, he is commemorated on the Thiepval monument, he was executed in Carnoy and the M.O. who certified his death was Capt. A. Anderson medical officer in charge 6th Divisional ammunition column. In the absence of a grave and the centenary of his execution coming up, it would be nice if we could at least discover a more exact location for this than just "Carnoy".So, to help me move forward from this stale-mate, my questions to the experts on The Forum are these:- H.F. must have been under guard by the military police. Anyone know where the divisional M.P's H.Q may have been in CARNOY in Oct 1916? ( is there a war diary?). The M.O. who was present at his execution was M.O. I/c 6th D.A.C.(--I didn't realise that DAC's had a medic attached??)- but assuming this, does anyone know where the 6th D.A.C.(HQ section) were located in mid Oct 1916? Presumably Capt. Anderson would have been there (?). Where were H.Q. Ist. West Yorkshire's in Oct 1916? As far as I know, the RAMC base was at Minden Post, near Carnoy about this time, does anyone know about personnel in RAMC and perhaps of a Capt. A. Anderson?----and possibly his location on 18th October? All these are a BIG ASK but hopefully we can locate the site of his execution and lay a wreath in that vicinity,hopefully this year. Thank you. David.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Captain Anderson's file at Kew is probably under this reference http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C671558 I appreciate that you are based in Norwich. keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Diary for 6th DAC is on ancestry, they were in Maricourt but have no entries for October, 1 sheet only 1st-31st no change. You may find Anderson arriving previously. Not an easy one to find as it's indexed as Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery. WO95/1598/4 ADMS diary for 6th Divsion is also on ancestry. But note it runs backwards, ie right arrow to go back. As you say, 6th ADMS were at Minden Post. WO95/1592 Anderson may be with one of the Field Ambulances. There is an A Anderson on active list and reserve of officers with the RAMC in Oct 1916. Other 6th Div. HQ diaries are available. Then perhaps 16, 17 & 18 field ambulance diaries, TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20th Division Posted 20 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Thanks Tew and Keith. I'm not on "ancestry" but will follow up your advice and references. Any other ideas how I might trace "a place" will be gratefully received. Thanks. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 You could check his battalion war diary - they might have been required to provide the firing squad. You can access Ancestry free at your local studies library, or try a two week free trial, as long as you cancel quickly Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Some of the confidential and sensitive material was sifted out of the War Diaries and put into another file, I think WO 154 but I don't think these files are on Ancestry and a personal visit would have to be undertaken to access them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 The extracted material is indeed in class WO154 but there are no files in that class relating to 6th Division, nor to XIV Corps of which 6 Div was a part in Sep/Oct 1916. The battalion War Diary is in file WO95/1618 (possibly /2) in the National Archives. It should be available to download from their website, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk for about £3.50. There may also be relevant information in the divisional A&Q diary in WO95/1586. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20th Division Posted 20 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Thanks again Keith--and also "Seaforths" and Ron. Sounds like I have a good few leads there. I will be on to it over the weekend. I know this subject is controversial----but I really feel Harry Farr deserves to be remembered in some way other than just a "name" on the regimental panel at Thiepval. I appreciate your help. THANKS. Dave.( Norwich). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 I had a quick flit through 6th Div diaries. DAC, HQBranches, A/Qmg, ADMS, 16, 17 18 FA and one of the Bde. Artillery. Nothing spotted for Anderson, firing squads or similar. They were quite busy at the time, there was a war on. Anderson certainly not in charge of any FA. Not sure how Div. artillery operated but if one Bde. was active they would have a medical team with them, diary recorded injuries, sick etc. FAs were rotating between named posts including Minden. Conjectural I know but 6DAC HQ, 6 Div. HQ, Medical HQ (& FAs) all used Bernafay Wood which was also an established dressing station complete with cemetery. Checking CWGC shows 11 unidentified bodies buried there. Somehow logical if a 6 Div medic was MO at the event that he may take charge of the body and disposal at his unit's cemetery? Not sure if the 11 bodies were concentrations but if not then why unidentified? TEW Sorry, 417 unidentified, 11 with special memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 ----but I really feel Harry Farr deserves to be remembered in some way other than just a "name" on the regimental panel at Thiepval. I appreciate your help. THANKS. Dave.( Norwich). He is remembered in the same way as countless thousands of others. Why does he warrant more than them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 20 April , 2016 Admin Share Posted 20 April , 2016 He is remembered in the same way as countless thousands of others. Why does he warrant more than them ? Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsA Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Do we not try to find final resting places for all "unknown" we can for just that reason? Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 How many of the SAD have no known grave, seems many were interred normally and a record kept. Did the regs change after Farr? If it was supposed to be hush hush would they have removed identifying items, tag, buttons even uniform? Had a concentration team found him they would have tried to identify him and reported a body with no ID? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Private Farr would live to see none of that, for he was being taken into the woods that day for his own execution, having been found guilty of failing to take his place in the front line. The only clue to his place of execution? Maybe he was buried nearby? He may have been buried in an unmarked grave but tjere may be a map ref for it. The grave could have been lost and that is why he is onTheipval. Sorry about the colour script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SapperBoo Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Private Farr is already remembered more than most, there is an entry in Wikipedia. I have followed some of the links, it is a tragic story. I hope his family find where he is buried. I wish all the missing had somebody looking for them. SapperBoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Johnboy Did that quote come from James Wilson the 'Freelance legal knowledge manager' and PR advisor? I think he's just got a bit prosaic with his description, nothing in any Farr material mentions being taken into the woods. Wilson has also got the date wrong so he should manage his knowledge a bit better. I'm sticking with trying to find Capt. A. Anderson RAMC but have failed to find anything that mentions Anderson in connection with 6th Divisional Ammunition Column other than the OP. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 I'll check where it is from. There should be a place of burial in some document or another? Probably not far from place of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Thanks And Putkowski mentions Anderson RAMC, MO I/C 6th DAC. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 http://timesandotherthings.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/court-martial-of-private-harry-farr.html I read on another site that only three of those executed have no known graves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 20 April , 2016 Share Posted 20 April , 2016 Gents Has anyone got his WO71 file? (no 509) There may possibly be mention in that beyond what is known already. Regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 21 April , 2016 Admin Share Posted 21 April , 2016 There is a soldier shot at dawn on the memorial at La Ferte sous Jouarre also soFarr is not unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 21 April , 2016 Share Posted 21 April , 2016 How many of the SAD have no known grave, seems many were interred normally and a record kept. Did the regs change after Farr? If it was supposed to be hush hush would they have removed identifying items, tag, buttons even uniform? Had a concentration team found him they would have tried to identify him and reported a body with no ID? TEW I think that IWGC policy was to treat the executed men in exactly the same way as other casualties. The most likely explanation of the absence of a known grave for Farr is that, like so many others, his grave was destroyed in later fighting in the area - probably during the German spring offensive of 1918. Private Farr is already remembered more than most, there is an entry in Wikipedia. I have followed some of the links, it is a tragic story. I hope his family find where he is buried. I wish all the missing had somebody looking for them. SapperBoo I agree wholly with this comment. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 21 April , 2016 Share Posted 21 April , 2016 Gents Has anyone got his WO71 file? (no 509) There may possibly be mention in that beyond what is known already. Regards Colin Transcribed verbatim by Putkowski There are other transcriptions of the WO71 file online but Putkowski's is the only one to say: Death Certificate [signed] A. Anderson Capt. R.A.M.C. M.O. i/c 6th D.A.C. One would think the MO i/c 6th DAC would get a mention in the diary but so far nothing. The 'freelance legal knowledge manager, author, editor, publisher and PR adviser' who wrote: At first light on 16 October 1916, Private Harry Farr of the 1st Battalion, the West Yorkshire Regiment, was led by his colleagues into a forest in the region of the Somme River in France................... Private Farr would live to see none of that, for he was being taken into the woods that day for his own execution.......... Got the date wrong and presumably just made up some evocative prose. Carnoy cemetery seems an obvious choice despite my suggestion of Bernafay based on the location of the MO. Carnoy There are now over 850, 1914-18 war casualties commemorated in this site. Of these, nearly 30 are unidentified and special memorials are erected to 17 soldiers and one airman from the United Kingdom, known or believed to be buried among them. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 21 April , 2016 Share Posted 21 April , 2016 He is remembered in the same way as countless thousands of others. Why does he warrant more than them ? But then the same could be said about Kipling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 21 April , 2016 Share Posted 21 April , 2016 Transcribed verbatim by Putkowski There are other transcriptions of the WO71 file online but Putkowski's is the only one to say: Death Certificate [signed] A. Anderson Capt. R.A.M.C. M.O. i/c 6th D.A.C. One would think the MO i/c 6th DAC would get a mention in the diary but so far nothing. The 'freelance legal knowledge manager, author, editor, publisher and PR adviser' who wrote: At first light on 16 October 1916, Private Harry Farr of the 1st Battalion, the West Yorkshire Regiment, was led by his colleagues into a forest in the region of the Somme River in France................... Private Farr would live to see none of that, for he was being taken into the woods that day for his own execution.......... Got the date wrong and presumably just made up some evocative prose. Carnoy cemetery seems an obvious choice despite my suggestion of Bernafay based on the location of the MO. Carnoy There are now over 850, 1914-18 war casualties commemorated in this site. Of these, nearly 30 are unidentified and special memorials are erected to 17 soldiers and one airman from the United Kingdom, known or believed to be buried among them. TEW Anyone else seen the original to double check it is 6th DAC ? Presumably i/c would indicate he was an acting officer in charge of whichever unit it was ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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