What does 'Run' signify as cause for discharge?

[emjayen]

Hi,

Am researching Samuel Larmour from Belfast who enlisted in 1912 as a Stoker. He was serving on HMS Blenheim in April 13 when something occurred which caused his eventual discharge. On his Service record on the cause for discharge column it simply states 'Run'. Further on in the record it states that he was hospitalised at the beginning of May and invalided in July 13, again the word 'Run' is mentioned.

Is this an acronym? Anyone any idea?

Michael

[redbarchetta]

An image of the section involved might help, Michael. Does it say "Run" or "RUN", with the latter suggesting an acronym, but the former very much not one?

James

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

Ive seen it on RN documents as, basically, deserted ie left the ship and not returned.

see

http://www.hmsrichmond.org/dict_r.htm

Regards,

Graeme

[healdav]

Run means deserted, and always has.

[David Filsell]

As in "done a runner".

[seaJane]

DR - discharged run

DD - discharged dead.

sJ

[David Filsell]

Intrigued by this posting.

On checking in Partridges Dictionary of Slang (1984 edition) it records, that amongst other many things, a runner is slang for "A deserter from from the Armed Forces" and notes "Since ca, 1940". That said I'm pretty sure I've seen it used in novels ( modern) to describe those who absconded from the navy in Nelson's time. But if our thought are are correct - the use quoted certainly look as if it predates the Partridge judgement by some 30 years.

Just a thought!

[seaJane]

Certainly seen it in manuscript in RN documents in the early 19c.

[emjayen]

Thanks to all for your replies. I was looking for something beyond the obvious!

FYI he went on to enlist in the Royal Irish Rifles but was invalided before going overseas. His younger brother was killed in the Princess Irene disaster on the Medway in May 1915.

Thanks again

Michael

[healdav]

Intrigued by this posting.

On checking in Partridges Dictionary of Slang (1984 edition) it records, that amongst other many things, a runner is slang for "A deserter from from the Armed Forces" and notes "Since ca, 1940". That said I'm pretty sure I've seen it used in of novels ( modern) to describe those who absconded from the navy in Nelson's time. But if our thought are are correct - the use quoted certainl look as if it predates the Partridge judgement by some 30 years.

Just a thought!

Completely wrong. The term Run or as someone has said DR - discharged Run, was in use in the RN in the 18th century and possibly earlier.

[Scalyback]

The word "runner" as slang not the official use of D-R and D-D on RN paperwork. Any great war reference from the army of the use word "runner" in context of desertion?

[seaJane]

OED first records "doing a runner" in 1980. I'll see what I can find in context of being a deserter: hold the line.

[seaJane]

d. A person who runs away; a fugitive; a deserter. Cf. runner-away n. at Compounds 2.▸

1440 Promptorium Parvulorum (Harl. 221) 429 Rennare, or vnstable a-bydare, fugitivus, fugitiva, profugus..currax.

a1616 Shakespeare Antony & Cleopatra (1623) iv. viii. 11 Let vs score their backes,..'Tis sport to maul a Runner.

1624 J. Smith Gen. Hist. Virginia iii. xi. 86 If I finde any more runners for Newfoundland with the Pinnace, let him assuredly looke to arriue at the Gallows.

1905 J. P. Wisser & H. C. Gauss Mil. & Naval Dict. 132 Run, the nautical name for desertion, a deserter being called a runner.

[seaJane]

I would point out that later references in the OED have for a long time been taken from printed sources only - later manuscript sources such as records tend not to have been included in the sweep for word usage, as there are so many millions of them that they could never have been read through in the days when reading was the only way to see a word in use. It'll be interesting to see whether the trend for digitising manuscripts will affect the OED much - on the other hand, what will happen is that only the interesting MSS will be scanned, and the dull ones that really do include the first administrative use of a word will be ignored ...

[Scalyback]

Interesting stuff there SJ. The 1905 reference is nautical, so would be interested to see a diary from a army view saying "Joe bloggs done a runner from camp yesterday".

[seaJane]

Interesting stuff there SJ. The 1905 reference is nautical, so would be interested to see a diary from a army view saying "Joe bloggs done a runner from camp yesterday".

The reference is certainly nautical but I note that the dictionary is the Mil[itary] & Naval Dictionary, so I would have expected an Army usage to be included if there was one. If only there was a way of searching Google Books but removing books later than a certain date!

sJ

PS: It occurred to me that I should look up "Run" instead of "Runner", so here we go (see 1719 for an army/militia reference) ...

Chiefly Naut. Absent (without leave) for an extended period, typically having deserted or failed to report for duty. Now hist.

Often used as a comment on the status of a sailor, marked in the ship's books with an R (see R n. 15g).

1695 R. Crosfeild Justice Perverted 16 Those that die, and others that continue sick above thirty days, and those sent to the London Hospitals for cure, who are thereby disabled to return to their Ships, are for the most part made Run.

1719 London Gaz. No. 5810/2 The Captains of the said Regiments have not made up the Accounts of the Dead and Run Men in their respective Companies.

1758 J. Blake Plan Marine Syst. 45 It is proposed that every deserter from a merchant ship be marked Run upon the muster-roll.

1782 W. Macintosh Trav. in Europe I. xxxix. 441 That the wages and effects of run seamen..shall be appropriated to this fund.

1821 Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. Dec. 521/2 He got drunk, outstayed his time..and not appearing, was marked as ‘run’, on the ship's books.

1862 W. White Sailor-boy's Log-bk. xv. 231 When a ‘run’ man's (a deserter) effects are sold, the money goes to Government.

1885 Hampshire Tel. & Sussex Chron. 9 May 8/3 In reference to one of his certificates in which he had been marked ‘run’,..he desired to say that that was owing to his having omitted to forward his sick certificate from Dr. Sall.

[David Filsell]

A can of worms. I think I'l run on this topic since I was only quoting others of sound reputation -not offering an opinion I thought correct Mr Healdev!.

However If you run - for sport, pleasure or desertion - you are in fact a runner

[Andy Wade]

Just a musing, and only slightly related to the topic, a RN mate of mine used to refer to leaving the ship when in port as "a run ashore". I wonder if these things have a similar origin...

[Scalyback]

A can of worms. I think I'l run on this topic since I was only quoting others of sound reputation -not offering an opinion I thought correct Mr Healdev!.

However If you run - for sport, pleasure or desertion - you are in fact a runner

Or for military communication. I wonder if runner was not used as slang for Navy desertion as the term runner was in use else where?

[healdav]

Just a musing, and only slightly related to the topic, a RN mate of mine used to refer to leaving the ship when in port as "a run ashore". I wonder if these things have a similar origin...

I think it possibly did have the same origin. Until well into the 19th century the ratings on a ship didn't get shore leave (for fear of desertion), so when they did get ashore they had Run.

The term Runner was not used by the RN, and still isn't. Someone who has deserted can still be put down as Run (and might well be described as such in normal speech on board), although the legal term now is deserted.

Incidentally, you have to be absent for at least five days to be classed as a Naval deserter. Until then you are absent without leave.

[Lawryleslie]

Run means deserted, and always has.

To "Run" somebody in the RN is also slang for putting them on a disciplinary charge. Sometimes referred to as "Running them in". This was certainly used in WW1 as my grandfather described himself being "Run-in by the Jaunty ( slang for Master-At - Arms) for not getting my hair cut" in his diary. Also during my 34 year naval career it was a common expression.

To have "RUN" inserted in your service record means, as you say, to have deserted as in "Gone on the Run".

[Ferina]

In my family research I found a very distant relative that served in multiple ships between 1906 and 1908 - nine ships, although some were repeated.  Against three of the ships it was noted conduct was 'VG', and two marked conduct as 'Fair'.  Three times he was marked as 'Run' including when he was marked as 'VG'.  It seems odd that he would go on the run three times in about 30 months and still get 'VG' ?

[KizmeRD]

If you post the document, or at least identify your distant relative, then it may be possible to offer some sufficiently informed comment in answer to your query. (RN Navy service docs are easy to misinterpret).
But did he actually serve during WW1 period? - if not, then forum rules won’t allow this discussion to progress.

MB

 

Edited 4 March , 2022 by KizmeRD

[Kath]

https://www.nmrn.org.uk/research/service-record-abbreviations

SERVICE RECORD ABBREVIATIONS

 

[Ferina]

Reading further in this report,about the 'Run' remarks it says:-

Recovered from desertion, sent to Chatham and sentenced.
Recovered from desertion and sentenced to 70 days hard labour.  Doesn't tie up with the VG conduct though!!