Charles Edward Manners Rfln R/40156 18th KRRC

[Redbourn]

I am researching the men on the St Albans War Memorial, one of whom is Rifleman Charles Edward Manners, 18th King's Royal Rifle Corps.

Manners had originally joined the KRRC in 1901, aged 18, and was discharged from the Army Reserve in August 1913

He re-enlisted in St Albans and joined the 18th Bn of his old regiment.

He is recorded as killed in action on 23rd August 1918. He was 34 years old.

A GWF thread about another man, Harold Farrar, has information from the 18th Battalion War Record in the 1918 KRRC Chronicle:

"On the 21st [August 1918] the Battalion relieved the 15th Battalion Hampshire Regiment [also in 122 Brigade, 41st Division] in the front line, having one officer killed, and one other rank wounded during the operation."

The entry then jumps straight to the 24th August, the day Farrar was killed, and I wondered if anyone had any information about what happened on the 22nd & 23rd?

CWGC records four men from the battalion dying on the 23rd and another ten on 24th.

Manners is buried at Lijssenhoek Military Cemetery.

Thanks in anticipation, Gareth

[clk]

Hi Gareth,

The battalion diary reads:

22rd August - "No action except slight enemy shelling. No casualties"

23rd August - "A quiet day no enemy action except shelling. 2 O.R Killed"

Regards

Chris

[Phil Evans]

The 15th Bn Hants diary is slightly contradictory.

22nd August - Battalion relieved by 18 KRRC and went into support.

23rd August - Attack on 18th KRRC resulting in capture of 3 posts.

24th August - B Coy went up to SHERPENBURG LINE to support 18th KRRC in minor operations to retake posts. Only slight infantry action.

Phil

[Redbourn]

Chris & Phil

Thanks for your swift response, very helpful.

I missed the War Diary on Ancestry - clearly needed to do the search standing on the other leg ...

Interesting to see the Hants recording the German raid being on the 23rd and the KRRC on the 24th.

Differences in when the writer thinks the military day starts i guess.

Thanks again, Gareth

[MBrockway]

A GWF thread about another man, Harold Farrar, has information from the 18th Battalion War Record in the 1918 KRRC Chronicle:

"On the 21st [August 1918] the Battalion relieved the 15th Battalion Hampshire Regiment [also in 122 Brigade, 41st Division] in the front line, having one officer killed, and one other rank wounded during the operation."

The entry then jumps straight to the 24th August, the day Farrar was killed, and I wondered if anyone had any information about what happened on the 22nd & 23rd?

Thanks in anticipation, Gareth

My transcription from the KRRC Chronicle here I think

Harold Farrar

The detail about 15/Hants's ORBAT in square brackets is mine.

I can confirm I did not omit anything from my transcription and that the Chronicle jumps over the intervening days. Chronicle, unsurprisingly, is in line with the war diary detail.

Mark

[johnboy]

The officer who died 21/8/18 was 2Lt. Goldby

Other 18 KRRC men

L/Cpl. Small 23/8/18

Rfn Clark 24/8/18

Rfn Fisher 25/8/18

Rfn Allott 25/8/18

The WD may shed more light with casualty numbers. Some of the above might have died of wounds?

[MBrockway]

Here are the details of the 21-25 Aug 1918 18/KRRC casualties split by DoW and KiA

21st August 1918
GOLDBY. 2/Lt W. C., KiA (listed as Killed 04 Sep 1918 in KRRC Chronicle Officers' Casualty List


23rd August 1918
BANDY, L/Cpl Albert, MM (01 Mar 1917), R/4994 - cannot find him in my copy of SDGW
BANN, Rfn Albert, R/6670, DoW
MANNERS, Rfn Charles Edward, R/40156, born Hawkeshead, Herts., enlisted St Albans, Herts., KiA
SMALL, L/Cpl William, Y/852, KiA


24th August 1918
ALLOTT, Rfn Willie, A/203810, DoW
CLARK, Rfn Richard George, R/42874, DoW
FARRAR, Rfn Harold, C/7226, KiA
FOSTER, L/Cpl Ernald William, C/6180, KiA
GUNNELL, Rfn George, R/40154, DoW
GUY, Cpl John Edward, R/12988, KiA
HUMPHREYS, Rfn Herbert William, 43933, KiA
LUTKINS, Rfn Joseph George, A/200886, KiA
SMITH, Rfn Ernest James, R/35710, DoW
THOMPSON, Rfn Alfred John, R/22931, KiA

CWGC also records the death on 24th August 1918 of 2/Lt Peter GORDON, 9/KRRC attached 18/KRRC. 9/KRRC had been disbanded on 02 Aug 1918 after the Kaiserschlacht losses. The KRRC Chronicle lists a 2/Lt Peter GORDAN as killed 09 Sep 1918, but gives no battalion. He is recorded on 31 Mar 1918 as surviving the decimation of 9/KRRC in the March 1918 Kaiserschlacht actions. The 9/KRRC war diary reports him transferred to 20th (Light) Division on 10 Apr 1918, but no specific battalion. At this stage only 11/KRRC and 12/KRRC remained in 20th Divn, as 10/KRRC had been disbanded earlier in the year. Both battalions mention officers arriving in April 1918, but their names are not listed. 18/KRRC's battalion war record also mentions reinforcements arriving in April, but again unnamed. I don't have the 18/KRRC war diary yet, so cannot check there.

Gordon has no KRRC Chronicle obituary and I can find no mention of this officer elsewhere in my KRRC sources. I don't have a copy of Officers Died ... He was from Nairn and appears on the Nairn War Memorial as Lt Peter Gordon, King's Royal Rifles. No battalion or dates unfortunately.

Death dates in the KRRC Chronicle Officers' Casualty List are rather unreliable - 2/Lt Goldby mentioned above, and higher up by johnboy, as KiA, is listed as Killed 04 Sep 1918. The Chronicle dates may be dates accepted as dead possibly?


25th August 1918
FISHER, Rfn Herbert, R/39266, DoW
RAYNER, 2/Lt Percy Thomas, MC, KiA

Hope this is of some help.

Mark

[charlie962]

mark, Peter Gordon is on SDGW as Temp 2nd Lt 12th Bn attached 18th, death date as above; The KRRC Chronicle 1918 has a 2Lt Peter Gordan killed sept 1918 but as you say the dates are unreliable;

Charlie

[MBrockway]

mark, Peter Gordon is on SDGW as Temp 2nd Lt 12th Bn attached 18th, death date as above; The KRRC Chronicle 1918 has a 2Lt Peter Gordan killed sept 1918 but as you say the dates are unreliable;

Charlie

Thanks for that Charlie. I was using my hard copy book of SDGW, which does not contain officers. These were published in a separate volume called, unsurprisingly, Officers Died in the Great War.

The online version via Ancestry contains both sources, however I don't have Ancestry access just now,.

I'd already quoted the 1918 KRRC Chronicle data in my original post.

The 12/KRRC war diary mentions "A fresh draft of 2 officers and 300 O.R." joining on 09 Apr 1918, but they are not named.

It also records 9 named officers joining from 8/KRRC on 04 Aug 1918, on 14th (Light) Division (i.e. 8/KRRC and 9/KRRC) being broken up as I mentioned above, but Peter Gordon is not among them.

No mention of Peter Gordon in the 12/KRRC war diary on 09 Sep 1918.

In fact I could find no mention of Gordon at all in the 12/KRRC war diary between the Kaiserschlacht on 21 Mar 1918 and his supposed death date of 09 Sep 1918.

[MBrockway]

London Gazette published 04 Dec 1917 includes P. Gordon, KRRC, in a list of temp 2/Lts (attached) transferred to Service Battalions with seniority from 29 Aug 1917.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30414/supplement/12761

London Gazette published 25 Sep 1917 includes Peter Gordon, KRRC, in a list of cadets to be temp 2/Lts (attached) effective 29 Aug 1917.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30304/supplement/9929

[Redbourn]

Thanks to all for the additional information which will allow me to complete Manners' write-up.

Incidentally, I will be passing this on to the Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery visitor centre for inclusion in their database.

I was very impressed when I sent them details of another man, and found they had put the information on-line and replied to me within a couple of hours.

Gareth

[MBrockway]

Several of the other men we have mentioned above are also commemorated at Lijssenthoek.