POWS & Military Intelligence

[jrhardy]

Does anyone have knowledge of Military Intelligence files in the National Archives that cover the use of the correspondence from POWs to send coded intelligence messages to the UK?

The reason for asking is that the correspondence between Sergeant Alpin MacGregor 9981 of the 1st Battalion of the Gordon Highlanders and his father the Revd. Duncan MacGregor, Minister at Inverallochy was used in this way. This was at their own initiative. Alpin also actively recruited others, particularly when they moved from Sennelager to other camps. One of these were was CSM Hugh Rennie 7088 of the 1st Battalion, Gordon Highlanders. Alpin’s granddaughter believes that the incoming letters from Alpin were intercepted by the War Office before being forwarded to his father.

Later Military Intelligence used Revd Duncan MacGregor to interview exchanged and escaped prisoners in Holland in mid-1917 when his son Alpin was also present. These focused on identifying possible POWs willing to send intelligence to create a network of ‘agents’ and on the materials and techniques necessary for a successful escape as well as bad treatment of POWs.

Why use a Minister from the north of Scotland for these interviews?

John

[seaforths]

Does anyone have knowledge of Military Intelligence files in the National Archives that cover the use of the correspondence from POWs to send coded intelligence messages to the UK?

The reason for asking is that the correspondence between Sergeant Alpin MacGregor 9981 of the 1st Battalion of the Gordon Highlanders and his father the Revd. Duncan MacGregor, Minister at Inverallochy was used in this way. This was at their own initiative. Alpin also actively recruited others, particularly when they moved from Sennelager to other camps. One of these were was CSM Hugh Rennie 7088 of the 1st Battalion, Gordon Highlanders. Alpins granddaughter believes that the incoming letters from Alpin were intercepted by the War Office before being forwarded to his father.

Later Military Intelligence used Revd Duncan MacGregor to interview exchanged and escaped prisoners in Holland in mid-1917 when his son Alpin was also present. These focused on identifying possible POWs willing to send intelligence to create a network of agents and on the materials and techniques necessary for a successful escape as well as bad treatment of POWs.

Why use a Minister from the north of Scotland for these interviews?

John

It it possible that the files you need or are interested in are at the National Archives in Kew and this link might be of interest to you:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=director+military+intelligence&_p=1900&Refine+dates=Refine

They are referred to as Director of Military Intelligence or DMI but at the time, known as DIRMILINT. The files regarding the treatment of POWs is in a different series of Foreign Office (FO) Files and the series is FO 383. Most, if not all POWs were interviewed but not all of the interviews were printed and these are in yet another series WO 161. The statements were used to identify instances of ill treatment and evidence gathered from them. The interviewers came from various walks of life, both military and civilian.

The mail to and from POWs was censored so they did use code to communicate information on escape routes and techniques to fellow prisoners in camps and I have seen reference to this. The Germans also abused the POW mail so that their spies operating in other countries could get information into Germany. They wrote letters to fictitious or non-existent POWs that was picked up by the censors in Germany and the mail was filtered out. The idea was that if they wrote to an actual prisoner that perchance did exist, the prisoner would just ditch the mail as they wouldn't know who was writing to them and the content would make little sense to them. I believe the system was uncovered in such an incident when the POW concerned was suspicious of pin pricks in the letter/envelope; simple but ingenious.

The prisoners also wrote coded letters to their families and friends in order to get escape implements sent to them, which were usually concealed inside other articles. The British Consulates and Vice-Consulates were also involved - the Vice-Consul at Schaffhausen was particularly pro-active regarding escapees and passing on information to the FO regarding escape routes and techniques. He urged them to pass on various encoded information to POWs still in captivity, via the very network you are talking about.

It's a very interesting subject, please do come back and tell us what you find out!

Edit: actually link is taking you somwhere else within DMI files hopefully this one will work better:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=director%20military%20intelligence&_p=1900

[seaforths]

CSM Hugh Rennie was SNCO on the POW Help Committee at Dulmen camp. He is not cast in a very favourable light in that role. I would be interested to know if you have, or have seen a sample of his handwriting?

[Scalyback]

Seaforths, could you briefly expanded on CSM Rennie? Most interesting

[seaforths]

Seaforths, could you briefly expanded on CSM Rennie? Most interesting

I was hoping that jrhardy might have an example of CSM Rennie's handwriting to compare with a postcard he seems to have sent to a regimental aid committee. I will have to dig it out of my Dulmen files when I get onto the PC again but as I recall, the content of the postcard was treated with suspicion because he had made what were deemed unacceptable omissions and it coincided with a number of complaints from men at Dulmen and the matters were investigated by the FO.

I was hoping that jrhardy might have an example of CSM Rennie's handwriting that might be compared with the postcard and if it could be proved it was actually him that wrote the card? Or, did someone else send the card? While the card itself seems fairly innocuous, the omissions he made were deemed as deliberate and unacceptable - unless it was deliberate for other reasons, that jrhardy might be able to expand upon and any other names of SNCOs being potentially recruited might be useful - as perhaps their names might be on the postcard.

[Scalyback]

Thank you seaforth I can see why you want the handwriting sample.

[jrhardy]

I followed your link though the level of cataloguing does not allow likely papers to be isolated. It would need a visit to Kew and a browse through a substantial amount of files. The only one that looked possible was one from the Directorate of Military Operations and Military Intelligence. This is a printed ‘Report on the Directorate of Prisoner s of War’ of September 1920 WO106/451. However this is for camps in the UK .

The exercise by Revd. Duncan Macgregor was different from the other interviews of escaped and exchanged POWs before the Armistice which were later printed, and these were not printed as far as I can tell. Another person on a Help Committee interviewed was Sgt. Michael (9496, 1st Bn. Gordon Highlanders) at Hameln Camp.

The copy held by the National Library of Scotland of the document by CSM Hugh Rennie (7088) is a typescript of 20 pages and dated 16 December 1926 so no luck on the handwriting. He was captured at Bertry and sent to Sennelager and then Dulmen from May 1915 until he was exchanged in February 1918. He was repatriated through Hull on 18 November 1918. I would be interested in a copy of the postcard sent to a regimental aid committee once you have found it in your files.

Thanks for your help.

[seaforths]

I followed your link though the level of cataloguing does not allow likely papers to be isolated. It would need a visit to Kew and a browse through a substantial amount of files. The only one that looked possible was one from the Directorate of Military Operations and Military Intelligence. This is a printed Report on the Directorate of Prisoner s of War of September 1920 WO106/451. However this is for camps in the UK .

The exercise by Revd. Duncan Macgregor was different from the other interviews of escaped and exchanged POWs before the Armistice which were later printed, and these were not printed as far as I can tell. Another person on a Help Committee interviewed was Sgt. Michael (9496, 1st Bn. Gordon Highlanders) at Hameln Camp.

The copy held by the National Library of Scotland of the document by CSM Hugh Rennie (7088) is a typescript of 20 pages and dated 16 December 1926 so no luck on the handwriting. He was captured at Bertry and sent to Sennelager and then Dulmen from May 1915 until he was exchanged in February 1918. He was repatriated through Hull on 18 November 1918. I would be interested in a copy of the postcard sent to a regimental aid committee once you have found it in your files.

Thanks for your help.

Sorry to hear the files were a bit of a disappointment. Yes, there were 'unofficial interviews' conducted that did not find their way into the WO 161 series but they did find their way into the FO files in full or in extracts. Sometimes, it wasn't even an inteview as such but the men were so relieved, they just opened up - they felt they needed to but their comments were recorded and passed on. Carl Dennet was doing something similar with the American Red Cross as the Americans filtered through although he makes some comments on the British. He has a book that is free to download from archive.org site.

The prisoners were supposed to be able to write uncensored letters to neutral delegates with complaints etc. but the Germans in most cases either did not allow it or, they took the letter and said they would pass it on and didn't. Some German Commandants insisted they would only handle such letters if they were drafted in German but that didn't guarantee they would action them. Only occasional letters of this sort got through. In 1918, the British managed to secure a reciprocal agreement whereby the Germans agreed to allow this to happen. However, they still stuck to their old ways and it reached a point where the British had had enough. They announced that unless Germany stuck to the agreement, they would take reprisal action against German POWs (they were required by a previous agreement to give at least two weeks notice of reprisal action). Things did not change and an Army Council Instruction was drafted and released stating that in future, all German POW mail to neutrals would be treated as normal mail and be subject to censorship. So the need to establish a secret network was something that happened early on and was an on-going requirement.

I will dig out the references to the network that I've found so far but there may well be others. CSM Cullinan, President of the Help Committee at Friedrichsfeld...is/was he included? He was fulfilling the same role as CSM Rennie. He used a French POW who was being exchanged to get word out via diplomatic channels that he needed to make contact with a neutral delegate.

Edit: Sources for paragraph 2; Foreign Office files and Parliamentary Papers. Paragraph 3; Foreign Office files.

[seaforths]

Extracts. March 1918 - a series of encrypted telegraphs 'Many of these escaping prisoners or groups of prisoners, bring with them a cypher by which they have arranged when they reach home, to communicate with their comrades left behind.'

Other information that looks as though being passed on; the use of pepper by escapers to keep or put dogs off their trail. Not divulging escape routes to the Swiss on arrival in case they might be pro-German. Location and actions regarding a training school for dogs and their operations close to the Swiss border.

Re Hameln. The secretary of the POW Help Committee at that camp was a L/Cpl - the FO were investigating his activities. Files also indicate numerous complaints of non-receipt of parcels at that camp and 10 British POWs put on trial for stealing parcels of other prisoners.

Also of note, file searches indicate the POW Help Committee at Brandenburg camp were also being investigated over something.

[jrhardy]

This is a list of those whose interviews have survived and I have added the Service Number where I can identify the person:

Gordon Highlanders:
Private Cooper, accompanied by Corporal Barnes.
Pipe Major Duff, 1st Battalion, Gordon Hrs.
Lieutenant The Hon. A. Fraser, Master of Saltoun, 1st Gordon Hrs.
Sgt. Major Gibb, 1st Battalion, Gordon Highlanders. [Also War Office Interview WO 161/100/546, pages 3368-3371]
Sgt. John Hay 1st Gordon Hrs. [106] President of the Help Committee at Merseburg
Sgt. E Jessiman, 1st Batt. Gordon Hrs. [9907]
Sgt. McGrath [1093?]
Sgt. Michael 1st Batt Gordon Hrs. [9496] On Help Committee at Hameln Camp.
QMS Hugh Rennie [7088] 1st Batt Gordon Hrs.
Sgt. Rennie 1st Battalion Gordon Highlanders. [3/5330]
Sgt. Charles Troup (of Aboyne) 1st Batt Gordon Hrs., [9805] with his friend Sgt. William Harry [10029]
Sgt. Gurney 2nd Batt. Gordon Hrs.
Corpl Malcolm MacLeod 4th Batt. Gordon Hrs.

Other Regiments
Cpl. Barnes, 2nd Manchester Regiment
Sgt. Cranes, Royal Irish Regiment, commonly called Cairns.
Cpl. Mitton Second Interview. [First Interview missing]
Cpl. Preston. 5th London Regt.
Sgt. Maj. Wright, Royal Scots.

Others:
Rev. J Irwin Brown, Minister of the Scots Church, Rotterdam.
Schussler, Night Porter, Hotel Pomona, Holenstraat, S’Gravenhage.
M.Vertogen, Belgian Pte., escaped prisoner.

John

[seaforths]

Many thanks John, Hugh Rennie - President of the Help Committee Dulmen - or so the card is stamped as such. Not on a PC at the moment but hopefully later to check some of the others out. The secretary of the Help Committee at Hameln, a L/Cpl was also being investigated. There were many complaints of missing parcels. A second. minister in the mix has thrown me a bit. I was thinking that I had seen a statement forwarded by a minister and seems to have been duplicated by a lady with the surname Vullaimy (she forwarded quite a lot of comments, statements and extracts from the men). I'm sure it's a duplication of the same information and possibly because of the content they wanted to make sure the information got back. Well, I thought it might be your Minister and I'm darned if I can remember the name of the man now but I will still have the file - it still might be your man. If memory serves me right, the chap was a SNCO and was known to one of them and more likely that was the Minister and not Miss/Mrs Vullaimy.

I read a passage from the book British Red Cross in action the other night to check on information regarding ex-pows working for them. There is mention of a large number of them returning as Red Cross workers to help their comrades who were being repatriated. The passage seems to indicate that this was at the end of the war when the prisoners were returning in large numbers but given that those who were repatriated were not allowed to take part in combat, their services were probably employed elsewhere - and organisations such as the Red Cross would have been ideal for them because of their previous experiences as prisoners themselves.

[jrhardy]

On 23 January 1916 Grace Vulliamy met interned officers and NCOs at the frontier "as usual". Miss Vulliamy was from the Society of Friends. She must have been well connected as she was one of the party that welcomed POWs at the Hook of Holland on 7 October 1916. Another report mentions she had been escorting wounded prisoners from the Dutch frontier since 1915.(Times 3 June 1918). She was well placed to gather information from POWs and sounds like one who would press her arguments. Her obituary was published in the Times on 24 April 1957:

"MISS GRACE VULLIAMY. TGB writes:-

Miss Grace Vulliamy, C.B.E., died peacefully at Princess Vlei Retreat, near Cape Town on April 10. After early years of nursing, including work in mental hospitals, she took charge of the organization which she created in Holland for the Society of Friends during the First World War. She was not herself a Quaker. Her unit established work in the camps for thousands of refugees from Belgium. for the reception and transfer to England of many civilian prisoners from Germany who were exchanged with Germans from England, and for helping refugees of all nationalities. Those who served with her and knew her during her life will pay tribute to her self-sacrifice, energy, ability, and especially to her human understanding, sympathy, and care. at the end of the war she went to Czechoslovakia to help the refugee children and, since the, her life had been devoted to "saving children" of any nationality, race, or colour. Her service in the First World War was recognized when she was appointed C.B.E. but thousands will remember with gratitude the kindness, supreme sympathy, and understanding which they received from "G.V."."

There was also a Mr Vulliamy who was from the War Victims' Relief Committee of the Society of Friends (Times 23 June 1916).

John

[seaforths]

Thank you for the information on the Vulliamy's - possibly a family affair; Miss Rose Vulliamy salaried in 1918 and working in Holland.

I've gone through the names in your list and nothing is coming up and yet, there are a couple of names that ring a bell with me. Possibly information buried in files under different headings.

Ones that are named in files:

Marquis of Tullibardine - receipt by him of a coded message about the mistreatment of prisoners at Preussich-Holland and the confiscation of their parcels.

Urgent request for an inspection at Ingolstadt following the receipt of a coded message - quite possibly from Captain Batty Smith,1st Loyal North Lancs.

Captain Tollemach - information in a coded letter received on the conditions at Holzminden Camp

A couple of other mentions regarding coded messages received from Turkey.

[Ron Abbott]

On 4/27/2016 at 16:50, jrhardy said:

This is a list of those whose interviews have survived and I have added the Service Number where I can identify the person:

Gordon Highlanders:
Private Cooper, accompanied by Corporal Barnes.
Pipe Major Duff, 1st Battalion, Gordon Hrs.
Lieutenant The Hon. A. Fraser, Master of Saltoun, 1st Gordon Hrs.
Sgt. Major Gibb, 1st Battalion, Gordon Highlanders. [Also War Office Interview WO 161/100/546, pages 3368-3371]
Sgt. John Hay 1st Gordon Hrs. [106] President of the Help Committee at Merseburg
Sgt. E Jessiman, 1st Batt. Gordon Hrs. [9907]
Sgt. McGrath [1093?]
Sgt. Michael 1st Batt Gordon Hrs. [9496] On Help Committee at Hameln Camp.
QMS Hugh Rennie [7088] 1st Batt Gordon Hrs.
Sgt. Rennie 1st Battalion Gordon Highlanders. [3/5330]
Sgt. Charles Troup (of Aboyne) 1st Batt Gordon Hrs., [9805] with his friend Sgt. William Harry [10029]
Sgt. Gurney 2nd Batt. Gordon Hrs.
Corpl Malcolm MacLeod 4th Batt. Gordon Hrs.

Other Regiments
Cpl. Barnes, 2nd Manchester Regiment
Sgt. Cranes, Royal Irish Regiment, commonly called Cairns.
Cpl. Mitton Second Interview. [First Interview missing]
Cpl. Preston. 5th London Regt.
Sgt. Maj. Wright, Royal Scots.

Others:
Rev. J Irwin Brown, Minister of the Scots Church, Rotterdam.
Schussler, Night Porter, Hotel Pomona, Holenstraat, S’Gravenhage.
M.Vertogen, Belgian Pte., escaped prisoner.

John

 

 

I don't know of a Pipe-Major Duff who had served in the Gordon Highlanders, however Pipe-Major James Ogston Duff (8696 and 3044133) served in the 2nd Bn. Royal Scots and was a POW between late 1914 and 1918 at a camp in Munster. 

 

Before joining the Royal Scots he'd served in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders for twelve years.

He was originally from Aberdeenshire, so perhaps that's why (if the same man), he was assumed to be a Gordon Highlander? 

[jrhardy]

The only notes I took of Pipe Major Duff's interview was that he was imprisoned at Munster and “I tried to escape but I was caught in a tunnel which we were digging, and got double punishment as a non-commissioned officer.”

 

John

 

[aboode]

On 27/04/2016 at 09:50, jrhardy said:

This is a list of those whose interviews have survived and I have added the Service Number where I can identify the person:

Gordon Highlanders:
Private Cooper, accompanied by Corporal Barnes.
Pipe Major Duff, 1st Battalion, Gordon Hrs.
Lieutenant The Hon. A. Fraser, Master of Saltoun, 1st Gordon Hrs.
Sgt. Major Gibb, 1st Battalion, Gordon Highlanders. [Also War Office Interview WO 161/100/546, pages 3368-3371]
Sgt. John Hay 1st Gordon Hrs. [106] President of the Help Committee at Merseburg
Sgt. E Jessiman, 1st Batt. Gordon Hrs. [9907]
Sgt. McGrath [1093?]
Sgt. Michael 1st Batt Gordon Hrs. [9496] On Help Committee at Hameln Camp.
QMS Hugh Rennie [7088] 1st Batt Gordon Hrs.
Sgt. Rennie 1st Battalion Gordon Highlanders. [3/5330]
Sgt. Charles Troup (of Aboyne) 1st Batt Gordon Hrs., [9805] with his friend Sgt. William Harry [10029]
Sgt. Gurney 2nd Batt. Gordon Hrs.
Corpl Malcolm MacLeod 4th Batt. Gordon Hrs.

Other Regiments
Cpl. Barnes, 2nd Manchester Regiment
Sgt. Cranes, Royal Irish Regiment, commonly called Cairns.
Cpl. Mitton Second Interview. [First Interview missing]
Cpl. Preston. 5th London Regt.
Sgt. Maj. Wright, Royal Scots.

Others:
Rev. J Irwin Brown, Minister of the Scots Church, Rotterdam.
Schussler, Night Porter, Hotel Pomona, Holenstraat, S’Gravenhage.
M.Vertogen, Belgian Pte., escaped prisoner.

John

jrhardy,

You mention P/M Duff, 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders. Do you have more information about him? He is not listed as P/M of the 1st Battalion in the Gordon Highlanders Pipe Music Collection Volume 1. 

Aad

[jrhardy]

I will recheck the interview next time I have the chance to see if there is any other information in it to identify this Pipe Major Duff and confirm his regiment and battalion.

From other research I can also add the names of some of the bandsmen of the 1st Bn who disembarked on 13/08/1914 in France.

 

Service No.	Casualty Rank	IRC Rank	Forename	Surname	Company	Place of Capture	Date of Capture
102	Private	Bandsman	Hugh	Rae	B Company	Bertry	27-Aug-14
221	Private	Bandsman	William	Hardy	A Company	Bertry	27-Aug-14
295	CQMS	Drummer	Walter	Blyth		Bertry
396	Lce-Sergt	Piper	David	Copland		Bertry
506	Private	Drummer	Dougal	McKay		Bertry
573	Private	Drummer	Peter	Gibb	D Company	Cambrai	27-Aug-14
840	Unknown	Drummer	J.	Campbell		Unknown	Unknown
857	Private	Piper	Frank	Anderson		Le Cateau	21-Aug-14
1038	Private	Drummer	James	Brebner	C Company	Cambrai	27-Aug-14
5675	Private	Bandsman	George	Murphy		Bertry
6490	Private	Piper	George	Cruickshanks		Bertry
7921	Private	Bandsman	John	Hickman	A Company	Hyon	24-Aug-14
9827	Private	Bandsman	George	Grainger		Bertry
9609	Private	Drummer	Daniel	Greig		Bertry
9888	Private	Bandsman	Robert or Richard	Mackie		Bertry
9984	Private	Bandsman	George	Davidson	D Company	Bertry	27-Aug-14

 

Ser. No.	Rank	Rank	Initials	Surname	Comment
320		Piper	J	Paterson	Missing. Died 1 January 1915, Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial.
501	L-Cpl.	Drummer	Robert	Mackie	Wounded as reported by Base 17 Sept. 1914. Discharged 12/5/15.   Scotsman article: 28/11/1914 when he was recuperating at Crieff
878	Private	Drummer	Alexander	Reid	Died of wounds Scotsman 16/02/1915 from wounds at Mons. Aged 30, unmarried and from Denny. Not in CWGC.
1113	Private	Piper	W	Michie	Patient at Royal Victoria Hospital, Netley 28 August 1914.
6546		Bandsman	T	Winstanley	Patient at 4th Northern General Hospital, Lincoln. 13 September 1914. Preston, previously musician.
7862	Sergeant	Piper	T.	Henderson	CWGC: Piper, 1st Bn., 7862, killed 14/12/1917, aged 36; Favreuil British Cemetery, II. D. 13.

 

John

[jimmy4174]

On 10/19/2016 at 12:00, Ron Abbott said:

 

 

I don't know of a Pipe-Major Duff who had served in the Gordon Highlanders, however Pipe-Major James Ogston Duff (8696 and 3044133) served in the 2nd Bn. Royal Scots and was a POW between late 1914 and 1918 at a camp in Munster. 

 

Before joining the Royal Scots he'd served in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders for twelve years.

He was originally from Aberdeenshire, so perhaps that's why (if the same man), he was assumed to be a Gordon Highlander? 

 

Hi Ron, Pipe Major James Ogston Duff did initially join the Gordon Highalnders before going to the Argyll's, he came from Peterhead and in WW1 he was a POW so I'm fairly certain you have the right man

Cheers

Jimmy

Edited 12 December , 2016 by jimmy4174

[Guest]

Hi all,  I've been researching the bagpipes that have been handed down in my Mitchell family from Peterhead & my cousins have sent me a photo of James Duff who served in WW1 & sold them to my grandparents (John & Elizabeth Mitchell) in the 1920's for 7 pounds.  I'd like to know more about James and found this thread.  Is there any chance someone may recognise this photo or know of any descendants of James Ogston Duff?  I did a quick Ancestry search & found a James Ogston Duff who married Elizabeth Burns Linn in 1899.  He had military records that match the service numbers mentioned in this thread.  James died in Edinburgh 10 Aug 1951.  Let me know if you have any more information on him or the photograph.  Thanks in advance.  Kath