Remains of 19 soldiers found

[Robert Missinne]

The battlefield-area above the gas-pipeline

[Seadog]

Thanks Robert that is a huge swathe cut through the battlefield approx 10 miles west to east and 8 miles north to south, a total of 18 miles or 29 km so the total area excavated will be enormous. There will be many more discoveries hopefully including the fallen. I look forward to more news as available.

Video 2014

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/11216997/In-Flanders-fields-the-largest-ever-WW1-excavation.html

Norman

[Bert Heyvaert]

The part that is being excavated is the north-south mart next to "Langemark-Poelkapelle". The rest was done last year and the year before.

[Ogilwy]

I covered a section of this job a while ago. I dug three separate locations including Langemark-Poelkapelle. There have been several sets of remains found so far. I lifted a soldier from the site opposite the New Irish Farm cemetery. He was probably a Gurkha looking at his stature and bone structure. The level of preservation of the bone was poor but the preservation of the clothing and personal effects was excellent. The top pockets of his tunic were block lifted so may well give up a good indication to his identity.

By the way there is a burial in Ypres of 6 British this Wednesday I understand. These were a Gun crew and a single soldier who was re-supplying ammunition when they were hit by counter battery fire. We managed to identify all six of the men so a burial with a name should take place. Done properly by archaeologists, we have about a 40 to 60% success rate in identification. The 19 are being overseen by the Belgian Archaeologists, but I just spoke to them and they are not sure if they are going to do the forensic evaluation of the remains and possessions. If they are I shall go over to assist if needed or just to help anyway, if so I shall let you know what's the score.

Oh, and the German 77mm chemical that was leaking was the highlight of my Langemark-Poelkapelle dig. So nice to get such a good example that I can now use as an example when at the day job!

Rod

[Seadog]

Can you elaborate on this statement: (Post 29)

By the way there is a burial in Ypres of 6 British this Wednesday I understand. These were a Gun crew and a single soldier who was re-supplying ammunition when they were hit by counter battery fire. We managed to identify all six of the men so a burial with a name should take place.

The CWGC announcement

Two Royal Field Artillery gunners to be buried 100 years after they were killed

The burials of Gunners Joseph William Rowbottom and Albert William Venus, along with the unknown remains of four other soldiers of the Great War will take place at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Ieper Town Cemetery Extension, Ieper, Belgium on 20 April 2016 at 11:00 hours. Both Gunners Rowbottom and Venus were killed in action on 24 May 1915.

Shoulder titles from North and East Riding Batteries, Royal Field Artillery were discovered with the remains. Research pinpointed the 2nd Northumbrian Brigade RFA to this area on 24 May 1915.

Apparently just the two were ID by name

N

[Ogilwy]

Norman,

Yes I can elaborate. All six are known by name, two definitively, however I was told this afternoon that although the names of the others are known, which is which is not certain! Yes this is a case where if relatives exist then DNA could be used, however I believe that this avenue has been explored.

Oh on thinking about it the remains were very poor in condition so DNA might very well be unobtainable! The names were ascertained from the War Diary as this was a single event and the regimental details and personal effects used to confirm those details. I suppose that in a single mass grave the names would be possible but not in individual grave. Always a trouble getting individual ID from a mass grave and condition is key in instances like this.

Rod

[Seadog]

So for the sake of clarity and to save any confusion there are two positive identifications and the two headstones will bear the names, there are four non-identifications and these headstones will read "Known Unto God". I take it that you where not responsible for the DNA profiling that lead to the identification of the two named soldiers. What is the situation regarding the "Gurkha" you "personally lifted from the ground" near New Irish Farm, has any progress been made in ID this soldier?

[AOK4]

Norman,

Yes I can elaborate. All six are known by name, two definitively, however I was told this afternoon that although the names of the others are known, which is which is not certain! Yes this is a case where if relatives exist then DNA could be used, however I believe that this avenue has been explored.

Oh on thinking about it the remains were very poor in condition so DNA might very well be unobtainable! The names were ascertained from the War Diary as this was a single event and the regimental details and personal effects used to confirm those details. I suppose that in a single mass grave the names would be possible but not in individual grave. Always a trouble getting individual ID from a mass grave and condition is key in instances like this.

Rod

Why not 4 gravestones then with "buried near this spot" or something similar, that's how this kind of problems was solved in the past.

[Ogilwy]

N, I do not know the current position of the Gurkha I lifted. Having done the best archaeological job possible on the extraction the rest remains in others hands in this case. I have asked to be informed when the burial takes place and will attend in uniform as is only correct. I would love to be able to spend days pestering CWGC and JCCC, but unfortunately my day job requires my attention and therefore I have to rely on the next steps being conducted by others.

AOK4, That would also be something in the order that I would have thought best. I think the reason is because the CWGC rules are very inflexible, (I'm sure Norman can do several hours on the subject) and as a result if it doesn't fit into the permitted mould then it can't be done. A shame really as names are always the ultimate aim. Still 33% is better than 0% which was the case. It is always disappointing, but short of conducting a petulant rant at people who I know are trying to do their jobs under severe financial constraints and other problems, there is little that can be done. Indeed the time taken to deal with such would remove someone from being able to conduct a far more productive task.

[SiegeGunner]

If I remember rightly, these six men were buried together and their names and the coordinates of their burial were recorded in their unit war diary. The fact that they were later found at the same location and that two have been identified as members of the group of six surely confirms that the others are the other four members of that group. If they were the crew of a WW2 bomber whose recovered remains could not be individually identified, they would be buried together under a headstone listing all their names. It is perhaps right that the two positively identified men should be buried in individual named graves, but surely the other four should be interred together, alongside or perhaps between them, under a headstone inscribed 'Believed to be ...'

When you think of all the men who rest in a named grave, identified only by a spoon that they might well have borrowed or found, it seems iniquitous that these four men should be buried as Unknowns.

[Ogilwy]

SG,

Full agreement, you are quite right in the back story, it was a five man gun crew and a soldier that was conducting the re-supply. He was identified as he was wearing spurs as horse drawn transport, and his other possessions and insignia matched on all counts. All others were looked at and did not match that individual at all so I assume that is why he is named, the other one named was identified as dental records matched up and his dentures matched what was recorded. Unfortunately the other four were badley degraded and mixed. I would have liked to see all buried together as Comrades in Arms and their names all listed on a single memorial. Unfortunately it is down to the powers to be to make such descisions and not mine.

Rod

[trajan]

... If they were the crew of a WW2 bomber whose recovered remains could not be individually identified, they would be buried together under a headstone listing all their names. ... When you think of all the men who rest in a named grave, identified only by a spoon that they might well have borrowed or found, it seems iniquitous that these four men should be buried as Unknowns.

... I would have liked to see all buried together as Comrades in Arms and their names all listed on a single memorial. Unfortunately it is down to the powers to be to make such descisions and not mine. ...

I really could not believe at first that there is such a policy that - as I understand it - would not allow them to be buried in one grave with a single stone with all the names thereon! Think on all those German graves, all that I have seen having a stone recording the names of the two or more men buried together as comrades in arms who are known by name! Somebody should ask there nearest MP about this...

[laughton]

I believe it would be a "Special Memorial C" which is for "Buried Near this Spot" and then they put the stones in alphabetical order. There is nothing to say that they can not all be aligned in one grave with the individual stones.

There is a post from Terry Denham with the details, as that is what I have posted on my bulletin board for that list of special memorials.

[Seadog]

Separate graves with separate headstones as this will allow the opportunity to replace any one of them with a named headstone should positive ID be determined in the future. The authorities are dong the sensible thing (as usual)

[trajan]

But even if DNA from bone is not possible, the O-18/O-16 ratio in the teeth would allow where these individuals were born and grew up to be determined, which could help identification - if they were not all from the same area, which is unlikely for an artillery section?. I suppose that one problem here, with both DNA and isotope analysis, is that it could be hard to get a 90%+ match, which may be what the CWGC demand.

Trajan

[keithmroberts]

It looks as if this was a Territorial Artillery unit, so at that stage of the war possibly most of the men would come from a more limited geographical area.

Keith

[Ogilwy]

Julian,

The skulls were very fragmented and the teeth no attributable to a single individual. That would be the reason Isotopic analysis was not conducted. It was a combination of the finds, Isotopic analysis that led us to a window of three or four when we Id'd Alan Mather. The DNA was the clincher but without the Isotopic data we would have had a much wider list of possibilities.

Rod

[AOK4]

Separate graves with separate headstones as this will allow the opportunity to replace any one of them with a named headstone should positive ID be determined in the future. The authorities are dong the sensible thing (as usual)

Yes, but at least they can use "buried near this spot" headstones as they know the names of the 4.

[trajan]

The skulls were very fragmented and the teeth no attributable to a single individual. ...

Thanks Rod. Never having worked on this kind of site - a direct hit wasn't it? - it is hard to envisage what might have remained.

[Seadog]

On 20/04/2016 at 21:54, AOK4 said:

Yes, but at least they can use "buried near this spot" headstones as they know the names of the 4.

That is entirely up to the MOD, the CWGC carry out the instructions of the MOD who are responsible for any attempts at identification. Anyway this particular part of the topic is in the wrong place it should be here:

 

 

[Ogilwy]

That is entirely up to the MOD, the CWGC carry out the instructions of the MOD who are responsible for any attempts at identification. Anyway this particular part of the topic is in the wrong place it should be here:

Thanks Norman, I had not realised that existed. Thank you for your complements in Post 2 there.

[Seadog]

Regarding the Gurkha as referred to in post 29 I was not aware that the Gurkhas fought on Flanders and I would be grateful for anymore info about this, in particular whether they were engaged in the area of New Irish Farm CWGC.

Thanks in anticipation

N

[Ogilwy]

Several are buried in New Irish Farm. His remains were exceptionally interesting. If not found in uniform on a battlefield I would have sworn they were female the pelvis was very degraded but that was the only hint at a male skeleton. I managed to block lift his breast pockets and they did contain personal belongings including the backing clips to shoulder titles that I could see. I have strong hopes that we can attribute a regiment at the least for this soldier.

I understand that during the weeks prior to my being there other remains were located and I was told that another Gurkha had been found with Unit Insignia although I have no detail of that but will ask.

Rod

[Robert Missinne]

Update till May 4 2016:

The ‘Kitchener’s Wood’-sector:
• Not so much well-constructed trenches, probably from the April-May 1915 period, primitive constructions
• Near Oblong Farm: a lot of fired German and British bullets
• A trench with a brick floor
• A wooden floor of a shelter
• The remains of a German uniform
• A ‘Pickelhaube’
• 2 Belgian Colt Machine Gun-barrels + a lot of fired and unfired cartridges
• Belgian uniformbuttons

Area north of the Kitchener’s Wood and south of the road Pilckem-Langemark road:
• Rests of a German soldier (later period referring to the gasmasksfilters)
• Parts of trenches
• At least 2 shelters with wooden floor
• Well preserved British Lee Enfield
• Several older ‘Fire burial remains’, some of them rather ‘rich’
• Mediaval ditches
• Well built trench structure
• A ‘Decauville’ railroad alongside duckboards
• Developed and connected shooter pits
• A stongbuilded German trench

Total human remains until May 4: 29 remains
• Mostly partly: e.g. only a rib, only both legs
• Remains of 4 skelets all mixed in a shellhole
• All remains are lifted

[Seadog]

Thanks for the update Robert, much appreciated. Do I presume that this refers to human remains?

Several older ‘Fire burial remains’, some of them rather ‘rich’

Norman