GW also used revolver

[Khaki]

Colt M1901 US Army .38 Colt revolver (dated 1903) a moderate caliber but still preferred by some officers and rear unit issue.

khaki

[JMB1943]

Khaki,

Why was .38 caliber regarded as not suitable for front-line service, whereas the 303 was more than adequate?

My guess is a lower muzzle velocity, but wasn't the .38 the classic police handgun in the US & therefore widely used at the necessarily close ranges ?

Regards,

JMB

[Old Tom]

Have understood that the larger calibres were necessary to inflict an immediately disabling wound. In the colonial world to stop a chap with a spear coming at the double.

Old Tom

[Khaki]

Hello JMB,

The whole problem with the family of 38 calibers I believe originates with their intended zone of use, without getting into the subject too deeply (no pun intended) the problem with .38's as Old Tom has pointed out is, simply put, 'stopping power'. It was discovered by the US army in the early Philippines campaign that a cylinder full of .38 Colt was insufficient to stop a charging Moro warrior and the older Colt .45 revolvers were reissued.

Much the same problem was found in WW2 by a family member who was a Captain in the British army when using a .38 against the Japanese.

Yes the 38 calibers were used as police side arms for many years especially in 38 special. I was issued and carried .38's and later switched to .45's. These days I prefer to carry 9mm luger Keltec and S&W .357 as a personal sidearm on occasion.

Getting back to the Great War and my illustrated Colt, as we know there was an initial shortage of M1911 handguns and they were supplemented by the introduction of the M1917 S&W and M1917 Colt, both in 45acp, the Colt M1901 .38 was still in inventory in sufficient numbers and was made available to those who needed a revolver but were not necessarily going to be in the front line, perhaps drivers, senior officers and others, this also had the advantage of freeing up much needed M1911's and the larger caliber revolvers.

You referenced .303 caliber, which is of course the standard British rifle caliber, being a totally different round and unrelated to handguns, its use was limited to rifle and machinegun.

I hope that these points answer your questions.

regards

khaki

[Stoppage Drill]

Khaki,

Why was .38 caliber regarded as not suitable for front-line service, whereas the 303 was more than adequate?

My guess is a lower muzzle velocity, but wasn't the .38 the classic police handgun in the US & therefore widely used at the necessarily close ranges ?

Regards,

JMB

The classic US Police revolver round was the Smith and Wesson .38 Special, a much pokier round than the .38 Long Colt chambered by Khaki's revolver.

The diameter of the S&W round is somewhat short of .38", at .357, but S&W designated it as .38 (Special) to indicate that it was a commercial competitor to the Colt cartridge.

[dman]

The classic US Police revolver round was the Smith and Wesson .38 Special, a much pokier round than the .38 Long Colt chambered by Khaki's revolver.

The diameter of the S&W round is somewhat short of .38", at .357, but S&W designated it as .38 (Special) to indicate that it was a commercial competitor to the Colt cartridge.

Other way around - the cartridge used is 38 COLT ARMY was the 38 long Colt - ballistics were 150 grain inside lube bullet propelled at 770 fps

giving it muzzle energy of 198 ft-lbs

38 special was an improvement of 38 long - the bullet fired by 38 long was undersize, theory was that was supposed to expand to fit barrel

(like the Minie ) - didnt work and 38 long developed reputation for poor ballistics and inaccuracy 38 special used longer case than 38 long - a 38 long will chamber in 38 special revolvers ballistics for 38 special vary, there are variety of bullet weights/shapes/velocity. The original cartridge was 158 grain propelled at 770 fps giving slight improvement over 38 long . Found to be inadequate as a "MAN STOPPER"

British 38 rounds were .359 in vs .357 for American 38, the fatter British dont chamber in 38 Long/38 Special it was based on the 38 Smith and

Wesson (38 S&W) ballistics were 200 grain bullet at only 620 fps giving 176 ft-lbs Later a 180 grain FMJ bullet was used to confirm with Hague

Treaty

[dman]

In addition at turn of 20th century standard police revolver was a 32 S&W - cartridge called NEW POLICE with flat nose bullet was supposed to give better stopping power

38 revolvers came in 1920'30 in response to bootlegger and bank robbers

[Khaki]

With all due respect, there has never been a standard police revolver,just as there is no such thing as a standard police department on a national basis. As far back as Theodore Roosevelt when he was Police Superintendent in New York his policy was to standardize the sidearms of the New York Police. All law enforcement departments whether city police, county, state or federal select their firearms based on the specific needs of each department.

The term New Police applied to revolvers is really a model name, similar to Chiefs Special, Detective Special, Military & Police, Highway Patrol and so on, yes those were frequently used by police agencies but were also available to the public. Departments would also purchase what they could afford and for some time even the surplus GW M17's in 45acp were very popular in fact the last time I was in uniform my buddy carried a S&W M1917 in 45acp and I had a S&W Model 10 in 38 Special. He was older than me and had served in the OSS, CIA and FBI as an instructor.

khaki

[MikB]

In response to JMB's posting, it's worth remembering that the 303 rifle round had more than 10 times the kinetic energy of 38 Long Colt, and a bullet tending to turn over tail-first in most targets, living or otherwise. Its stopping power was never in question, certainly not after the introduction of the Mk.VII round.

[JMB1943]

So it all boils down to the kinetic energy of the bullet. Although (see Terminal Ballistics thread above) the tumbling action of the bullet upon impact also plays a role in the wounding aspect.

In terms of recoil, what effect would a 303 HV rifle cartridge fired from a hand-gun have on the firer ?

Regards,

JMB

[bill24chev]

So it all boils down to the kinetic energy of the bullet. Although (see Terminal Ballistics thread above) the tumbling action of the bullet upon impact also plays a role in the wounding aspect.

In terms of recoil, what effect would a 303 HV rifle cartridge fired from a hand-gun have on the firer ?

Regards,

JMB

The shoulder where most of the recoil is transmitted to the firer of a 303 or similer Rifle round is quite robust but would still benefit from some padding.

If the same power was available in a hand held weapon the effect on a relativity fragile hand and wrist would be traumatic.

[MikB]

So it all boils down to the kinetic energy of the bullet. Although (see Terminal Ballistics thread above) the tumbling action of the bullet upon impact also plays a role in the wounding aspect.

In terms of recoil, what effect would a 303 HV rifle cartridge fired from a hand-gun have on the firer ?

Regards,

JMB

I think mining teams used 303 SMLEs cut down both ends, which could be used one-handed. I've never tried anything like that, but it's a fair guess that the result would be very uncomfortable to shoot and might sprain the wrist if at an awkward angle, as well as harming the eardrums in a confined space and blitzing out night vision for a bit. The gun might also escape the shooter's hand. But I doubt serious or disabling injury would normally occur.

[Khaki]

I thought you might like to see a nice holster that I bought yesterday, it is a nice match for my .38 Colt army.

khaki

1906 Rock Island Arsenal holster

[Khaki]

Holster reverse showing arsenal marking, front also show issue numbers, one set deleted.

[T8HANTS]

The shoulder where most of the recoil is transmitted to the firer of a 303 or similer Rifle round is quite robust but would still benefit from some padding.

If the same power was available in a hand held weapon the effect on a relativity fragile hand and wrist would be traumatic.

I have fired 30-06, which is a bigger round in a specialist long range handgun at Bisley.

The recoil is controllable and not too unpleasant, I was quite chuffed as I got 9 bulls and and an inner at 300yds.

My mate was unimpressed as he was some sort of record holder with the beast.

[free1954]

I thought you might like to see a nice holster that I bought yesterday, it is a nice match for my .38 Colt army.

khaki

0515161122.jpg

1906 Rock Island Arsenal holster

wow. that holster and revolver are in very nice condition for their age.

[calibre792x57.y]

All handgun cartridges seem to have limitations of some sort for military use. The Eley Mk VI FMJ 0.455 round proved to be unequal to the task when it supplanted the lead Mk II . The British 0.380 Enfield and Webley revolvers were thought to be decent man-stoppers when using a round nosed 200 gn lead bullet. These were subsequently withdrawn from operational use and were used up in practice, being replaced by the full metal jacket Mk 2. Even the venerable Colt .45 ACP round proved to be unable to stop Chinese infantry in Korea when they were wearing fabric padded body armour, which led to the rapid appearance of .357 Magnum revolvers at the front. They did the job! But the 9mm parabellum cartridge is still in general use despite the accounts of their poor manstopping abilities which are legion.. In the Falklands those paras who were unfortunate enough to be issued with the Sterling S.M.G. were said to have dumped them and picked up British (or better yet Argentinian) S.L.R.s. - SW

[Khaki]

Hello free1954,

Thanks, yes I was lucky to find one like that, mostly they are flaking badly, (that is if you can find one), I believe a collector passed way and his holster collection was purchased by a local gun shop.

khaki

[dman]

All handgun cartridges seem to have limitations of some sort for military use. The Eley Mk VI FMJ 0.455 round proved to be unequal to the task when it supplanted the lead Mk II . The British 0.380 Enfield and Webley revolvers were thought to be decent man-stoppers when using a round nosed 200 gn lead bullet. These were subsequently withdrawn from operational use and were used up in practice, being replaced by the full metal jacket Mk 2. Even the venerable Colt .45 ACP round proved to be unable to stop Chinese infantry in Korea when they were wearing fabric padded body armour, which led to the rapid appearance of .357 Magnum revolvers at the front. They did the job! But the 9mm parabellum cartridge is still in general use despite the accounts of their poor manstopping abilities which are legion.. In the Falklands those paras who were unfortunate enough to be issued with the Sterling S.M.G. were said to have dumped them and picked up British (or better yet Argentinian) S.L.R.s. - SW

Caliber and type of handgun a nation uses are defined by what is supposed to do - be a combat weapon or a symbol of rank (and last ditch

self defense weapon)

Britain and America designed handguns to be used as effective combat weapon, they favored heavy caliber revolver/automatic type handguns

in large calibers (45)

Most European armies viewed handguns as more symbol of rank favoring small caliber revolvers/Automatics (Lebel revolver, Walter PP type

pistols, etc) Most in 32 caliber (8mm lebel, 7.65mm (32 ACP)) or low powered 9mm (9mm short (380)) Staff officers sometimes used pistols of

25 (6.35mm) caliber - believing would never have to use them.

German Reichs Revolver of 1879/83 in 11 mm caliber did not even have an ejector, user would have to use separate stick or remove cylinder pin and punch out fired cases.

Rationale was that if needed more than 6 shots situation was probably out of hand ........

[Khaki]

Smaller calibers in higher velocities and semi auto's were made practical by the introduction of 'smokeless' powders burning at a faster rate and also burning cleaner. We have to remember that France also used the Chamelot Delvigne revolver from the 1870's into the Great War , as did Germany with the Reichs revolver's, Russians were fond of the S&W top break in 44cal, not forgetting the huge Montenegren Gasser revolvers which were also copied in Belgium. larger calibers were popular before 1900, the important point being that France, Belgium and Germany were also involved in colonial area's where a 'big chunk of lead' was needed to stop an attacker. The issue then arrives at the still debated velocity-v-bullet weight discussions which will probably remain a 'hot' topic whenever firearms are discussed.

khaki

[MikB]

...

The Eley Mk VI FMJ 0.455 round proved to be unequal to the task when it supplanted the lead Mk II .

...

- SW

Have you evidence of that? Effectively the ballistics were the same as the Mk.II lead conical ball. Velocity was not enough to cause the bullet to expand much, and energy not enough to make much use of it if it did. And even many American writers have described the .455 as one of the best examples of controlled handgun stopping power.

It doesn't seem obvious that FMJ Mk.VI ball would be much different.

[dman]

Smaller calibers in higher velocities and semi auto's were made practical by the introduction of 'smokeless' powders burning at a faster rate and also burning cleaner. We have to remember that France also used the Chamelot Delvigne revolver from the 1870's into the Great War , as did Germany with the Reichs revolver's, Russians were fond of the S&W top break in 44cal, not forgetting the huge Montenegren Gasser revolvers which were also copied in Belgium. larger calibers were popular before 1900, the important point being that France, Belgium and Germany were also involved in colonial area's where a 'big chunk of lead' was needed to stop an attacker. The issue then arrives at the still debated velocity-v-bullet weight discussions which will probably remain a 'hot' topic whenever firearms are discussed.

khaki

IN 1880/90's many armies adopted very small caliber (7.5/8 mm) revolvers - fired cartridge of 100-125 grains at velocity of around 750 feet/second

muzzle energy was only 125-150 foot/lbs - similar to 32 S&W long cartridge, less than that of despised 38 Long Colt which failed miserably against

Moro.

The French Delvigne revolver, in original load, fired a 180 grain bullet at only 425 feet.second - slow enough to be seen on way to target ! It yield only

only 73 foot/pounds, equal to a 25 auto. Upgraded load used lighter bullet and heavier powder charge (160 grain at 620 ft/sec) - better, but still only

144 ft/lbs. Replaced in 1892 by 8 mm Lebel revolver. During WW I France bought enormous quantities of RUBY automatic in 7.65 caliber from

Spanish gun makers.

The small caliber (7.62 mm) Mauser "Broomhandle" fired 86 grain bullet at 1300 ft/sec - it produced a small through and through wound

(unless struck large bone) - like a stllleto or ice pick . Problem was if guy bleed out 5 minutes later from internal bleeding would still have time to

kill you before dying.....

Bitter experience taught US Army need large caliber heavy bullet to put opponent down - hence the 45 Colt Automatic - still the gold standard

of hand guns 100 years later (and still in use by Special warfare operators in modified form)

Belgium used Browning designs (1900/1903/1910) in 7.65 and 9 mm short calibers

Revolvers in use by most European powers were in second/third line formations - primary handguns were small caliber revolvers/autos

[Doc2]

All handgun cartridges seem to have limitations of some sort for military use. The Eley Mk VI FMJ 0.455 round proved to be unequal to the task when it supplanted the lead Mk II . The British 0.380 Enfield and Webley revolvers were thought to be decent man-stoppers when using a round nosed 200 gn lead bullet. These were subsequently withdrawn from operational use and were used up in practice, being replaced by the full metal jacket Mk 2. Even the venerable Colt .45 ACP round proved to be unable to stop Chinese infantry in Korea when they were wearing fabric padded body armour, which led to the rapid appearance of .357 Magnum revolvers at the front. They did the job! But the 9mm parabellum cartridge is still in general use despite the accounts of their poor manstopping abilities which are legion.. In the Falklands those paras who were unfortunate enough to be issued with the Sterling S.M.G. were said to have dumped them and picked up British (or better yet Argentinian) S.L.R.s. - SW

Do you have any documentation on .357s being issued in Korea? Not arguing, just asking, as I have never seen a good reference for that.

[calibre792x57.y]

'Cartridges of the World' - Editor Frank Barnes mentions their use in Korea but neither he nor I said they were government issue firearms. - SW

[MikB]

The small caliber (7.62 mm) Mauser "Broomhandle" fired 86 grain bullet at 1300 ft/sec - it produced a small through and through wound

(unless struck large bone) - like a stllleto or ice pick . Problem was if guy bleed out 5 minutes later from internal bleeding would still have time to

kill you before dying.....

Churchill at Omdurman thought it was (IIRC) "...the best thing in the world." Perhaps the ability to gallop onward on horseback reduced the stopping-power requirement.