charlie962 Posted 6 February , 2017 Share Posted 6 February , 2017 (edited) Just a bit of an update on my previous postings about Charles Lowman. The Prisoner of War records for Kut theatre are now available on ICRC site, under Gallopoli. (see this notice by Charlie2) I couldn't find an index card but a slow slog through the actual prisoner rolls enabled me to find this man under 'Charles Noman' ! So it pays not to give up. This is the first time I've seen 1916 prisoner lists for those captured at the fall of Kut. Anyway his 'Noman' card says he was number 1973 (correct) but interestingly doesn't mention Hampshire Regt and just gives his unit as 'Wireless Squadron'. This for me confirms that he is the Cpl C Lowman who manned the wireless during the siege and is quoted numerous times in Lady Neave's book (which I still haven't seen). It also gives his address as Woodlands which means I know which Census is his. Anyway for those interested in Kut prisoners, look at at the ICRC records and scroll through the original listings because there were plenty of transcription errors getting onto the list and going from the list to the card. Even some of the cards are misfiled so don't give up too easily. Charlie PS I didn't find Holloway. Edited 6 February , 2017 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 6 February , 2017 Share Posted 6 February , 2017 Glad to know about the Kut POW listings. I shall buzz off and look for Lionel Tudway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 6 February , 2017 Share Posted 6 February , 2017 Drat ... can't find him ... finding the site very difficult to manage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 6 February , 2017 Share Posted 6 February , 2017 11 minutes ago, seaJane said: Drat ... can't find him ... finding the site very difficult to manage! Welcome to the club I presume this the man https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2945568/699/51962/ I can't find him in the Gallipoli section either, this is from the main file. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 6 February , 2017 Share Posted 6 February , 2017 (edited) That's him - the only representative of the RN at Kut:- From "Secrets of a Kuttite" by Edward O. Mousley, a friend of Tudway's: 19 March 1916: ‘Another shell got the Sumana through the funnel and bridge, killing one of her crew. Tudway’s cabin was completely wrecked. Tudway is a deserving, hard-working subaltern, the only R.N. representative in Kut. He always takes it as a personal insult if his gunboat is hit. She is the apple of his eye. H.M.S. Sumana, an improvised gunboat, is of the greatest importance, as she keeps us in touch with “Woolpress”, our tiny stronghold on the other bank, which prevents the Turks from coming right down to the river-bank and thus rendering our water-front totally unendurable. She takes across a barge with provisions and reliefs, and makes three or four trips a week. This the Turks know full-well, and do their best to send her under during the day. However, she is fairly well protected with mahelas and rafts, though by no means completely. It is a difficult problem to know how to protect her, and engages all Tudway’s thoughts. In fact, how she remains afloat at all is a puzzle to every one.’ 20 March 1916: ‘Another small strafe started, and H.M.S. Sumana stopped quite a few. She received five direct hits from 9-pounders, and one from the 18-pounder field-gun the enemy captured from us at Ahwaz ... truly the sight of the Sumana ripped and torn through and through by shell and bullet, with her shotted funnel and her smashed cabins, and her White Ensign soiled and tattered, the finest flag in all the world, still fluttering in the storm - would be a sight for gods.’ Edited 6 February , 2017 by seaJane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) SJ there were a number of RN taken at Kut. Worth its own thread? But here to illustrate, extracted from ICRC Charlie962 Tudway is on the list for YOZGAD, 1/8/16 Edited 7 February , 2017 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) SJ Some may have been manning the naval guns? These extracts from Sandes "Kut and Captivity": February March If you want a separate thread (and I think its worth it) I will transfer this info across and delete from here to leave just 1/4th Hants!! Charlie962 Edited 7 February , 2017 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 7 February , 2017 Share Posted 7 February , 2017 (edited) Thanks Charlie - I've read the Sandes but in such a hurry I hadn't retained the info! Maybe it would be best to transfer the info across. I am fascinated by the Mesopotamia flotilla as you may have guessed - starting from when I found a photograph of Dermot Loughlin, surgeon of HMS COMET, in an album at work. In fact there's probably a thread or two of mine about him and/or COMET somewhere already; it will have been a few years ago now. Edited 7 February , 2017 by seaJane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 8 March , 2017 Share Posted 8 March , 2017 On 12/04/2016 at 23:22, Marc Thompson said: Worth noting that of the 157 NCOs and other ranks of 1/4th Hants taken prisoner less than 50 survived. Marc, I have been looking through Casualty Lists, ICRC records, medal rolls etc and I have come up with 173 Hants ORs taken at the fall of Kut, 29April1916 of which 51 survived. I am sure my figures are reasonably accurate but it is terribly difficult to be sure; transcription errors being the least of my problems! A few of these were seriously sick/wounded and were exchanged immediately. Do you have a list making up your figures? I know there is a roll at the Hants Archives that I haven't seen. There is also a photo of 39 of the survivors in 1919. I would like to verify my figures and understand the differences because this may help me in analysing other units at the surrender. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 10 April , 2017 Share Posted 10 April , 2017 On 08/03/2017 at 20:18, charlie962 said: Do you have a list making up your figures? I know there is a roll at the Hants Archives that I haven't seen. Following on from this I now have a copy of the Hants Archive A(HQ)Company Roll which explains the 157 figure. But I now have to understand why I have, for example, men of the 1/4th, taken at Kut, in the 1919 photograph of survivors but not on the Roll. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 10 April , 2017 Share Posted 10 April , 2017 Were they in 1/4th when they were taken or were they transferred to it on return home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 10 April , 2017 Share Posted 10 April , 2017 (edited) The army number is a 4th Hants,In some cases the ICRC quotes 4thHants and 'taken Kut 29/4/16'. There are a number of possibilities, eg 1)The A(HQ)Company list may be exclusive. Those from other companies attached or sick and left at Kut when the others cleared out may be excluded? 2)The list may contain errors. This seems to be the case with other unit lists eg Norfolks. I hesitate to question this because generally they were prepared by someone who was part of the unit and was there at the time. Destruction of records before surrender, disappearance of so many men untraced etc must allow for this possibility. 3)The remainder of 1/4thHants were in the relief force and a man may have been captured in one of the attempts and regrouped by the Turks at the surrender. (incidentally horrific casualty rates in the relief force) 4)What else? I will work through the discrepencies then contact the Hampshire Regiment Museum, which I managed to visit briefly at high speed last week before catching a plane at Southampton. Goodness knows when next I might find an excuse. The Museum do hold extra records for the Prisoners Comforts Fund I believe. Charlie Edited 10 April , 2017 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History Hunter Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 Wow, I'm so pleased to find this thread! Charles Lowman was my Great Grandfather. My Mum remembers him but doesn't know much about him other than he had served in WW1. I still live in the same area and he is buried in our village churchyard with the words "Defender of Ladysmith and Kut" along the edge of his grave. I can probably find some family photos. I have found newspaper reports mentioning he gave a speech to the school children about his experiences as a POW on Empire Day. Does anyone have any further information please?? I am slowly managing to research my family history and eager to find out more! Thanks, Helen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 4 minutes ago, History Hunter said: Charles Lowman was my Great Grandfather. Hello and welcome,History Hunter, I have gathered a fair bit of information on Charles Lowman and I will try to pull it together in one place to let you have a copy. An old soldier with quite a story I believe. He is one of several correspondents heavily quoted in Lady Dorina Neave's book "Remembering Kut" which was published in 1937 but has not been reprinted. Copies (not that cheap) are available from time to time through eg Abebooks. He must have died just before the book came out. I would really like to put a face to the name. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 December , 2017 Share Posted 2 December , 2017 (edited) On 30/11/2017 at 15:38, History Hunter said: eager to find out more! Here is a summary 'Timeline' of what I have worked out: Charles Edward Lowman, 1876-1936 I hope this is of interest, Charlie edit: seemingly not? Edited 15 December , 2017 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 25 January , 2018 Share Posted 25 January , 2018 On 30/11/2017 at 15:38, History Hunter said: Charles Lowman was my Great Grandfather History Hunter, you've gone very quiet! Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History Hunter Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 (edited) Charlie, Profuse apologies, I have been looking through family photographs and have one for you to look at. I don't usually post in forums is there a way for me to pass this to you privately please - happy to post publicaly if we think it's him but I'm not sure. Helen I have attached below the Merchant Seaman Card of Charles brother - Frederick Lowman to aid identification. I'm still favouring the chap in the back row but he is marked as Crees. Edited 8 March , 2018 by History Hunter added photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 Helen, you can use the personal message system. Hover your cursor over the potential recipiens name to see the message option. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History Hunter Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 17 minutes ago, keithmroberts said: Helen, you can use the personal message system. Hover your cursor over the potential recipiens name to see the message option. Keith Thank you Keith, I'll give that a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History Hunter Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 On 25/01/2018 at 19:22, charlie962 said: History Hunter, you've gone very quiet! Charlie Huge apologies, I have sent you a message! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsm100 Posted 17 May , 2019 Share Posted 17 May , 2019 Hello, This is a fascinating thread. I have been researching a member of (I think) the 4th Hants who if I'm right was captured at Kut. His name was Private (at the time acting lance corporal) Joseph Hansford Ainslie Hill (variously also appearing as "Ainsley Hill"); service number 3291/201099. He seems to have been returned in one of the prisoner exchanges and in the end lived until 1969 - despite being shot in the head while serving on the North West Frontier in 1919 (see link: http://somersetremembers.com/content/storys/a-shrapnel-wound.ashx). James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 May , 2019 Share Posted 17 May , 2019 (edited) For some strange reason I stopped getting notifications a long time ago? Missed History Hunter's last posts and your recent post, James !! Anyway for JHA Hill, He was indeed captured at Kut 29/4/1916 but due to serious illness or injury was one of the fortunates to get exchanged from Baghdad in Sept 1916. I will post a link to similar thread which gives some useful background on these exchanges. (edit see here) I will look up what else I may have on Hill. Charlie Edited 17 May , 2019 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 May , 2019 Share Posted 17 May , 2019 (edited) Further to my earlier post: Hill JHA, 3291 / 201099 At the fall of Kut 29/4/16, Hill was acting as a Hospital Orderly. He went with all the other PoWs some 8 miles from Kut to Shamrun (Shamran). He remained there with the Field Ambulance when the rest of the 1/4th Hants proceeded to march to Baghdad and on to Turkey and prison camp, for those that survived. There was a first exchange of prisoners at the beginning of May from Kut/Shamrun and the remaining Medical Personnel were supposed to be included. In the event the Turks refused to let all but the most seriously sick or wounded of the BORs go, and none of the Medics. It is probable that Hill went with the remaining sick (who were incapable of marching despite threats) to Baghdad by boat. There the sick continued to die due to lack of medical facilities rather than personnel. The second exchange of PoWs took place in Aug/Sep 1916 from Baghdad. This included a large number of medical personnel and Hill was presumambly classed as one of these? They were taken downriver on the HS Sikkim and then transferred at Basra to boats for India. An excellent description of the exchange process with all its difficulties and delays is given by Major CH Barber IMS in "Besieged in Kut and After" (archive.org has a copy) Given Hill's good luck in surviving the Siege of 5 months, avoiding the worst of the PoW experiences that killed 70% of his comrades, and then surviving being shot between the eyes on the NorthWest Frontier he was a most remarkable man. Besides your 'Somerset Remembers' article there must surely be some other accounts of his experiences ? Have you contacted his family ? I note his NoK was given as (father) Mr A Hill, Hobswell House, Cheddar, Somerset Charlie This is on FindmyPast under SomersetDorset Notes Edited 17 May , 2019 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsm100 Posted 18 May , 2019 Share Posted 18 May , 2019 Thanks Charlie - this is fantastic. I haven't contacted his family yet, or so far managed to discover any other account of his experiences, but I'll carry on digging and keep you posted. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 18 May , 2019 Share Posted 18 May , 2019 James, I have a friend in Cheddar and if you are not local I can ask her whether she knows anything/anyone. seaJane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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