Royal Fusilier Regimental Numbers

[Guest NSman]

Pride of place in my grandma's home was a big studio photo of grandfather.in uniform. Seated, he wore kahki drill (those bare knees fascinated me as a child); a sash across his chest, a "pay stick" or cane across his knees and a pith helmet on his lap. Today the memory of that picture and his uniform say to me: " service in India or middle east, maybe Gallipoli", and a studio photo taken in Malta or Egypt on the way back to Europe.

I know tht he was a Royal Fusilier and a few weeks ago I traced his awards card on the internet: "Sergeant, Royal Fusiliers, 9th Bn. Regimental number 9911. Military Medal, France".

But I know tht the 9th Bn never served outside the Uk and Europe. And I doubt they ever wore KD's and pith helmets in France!!

Questions: In what order were the RF regimental numbers allocated?

Could he ever have been in (say) the 2nd Bn RF in 1914?

I wld greatly appreciate some suggestions on this ... and also how I might discover any details about his MM!

I believe that he served from 1914 to 1918, and he wld have been in his mid to late thirties in WW1. His name: Edward Albert Smith (a name which makes WW1 research so much more complicated).

Thanks for reading this.

Alan

[Muerrisch]

A few thoughts. 'Pay stick' is Pace-stick: strictly, a sort of wood and brass large compass arrangement for measuring length of pace, usually only seen nowadays gripped/ used by Guards Drill Sgts and RSMs. Ordinary stick was 'regimental cane' or 'swagger stick'.

RF numbers were issued in strict sequence [excluding TF and SR] and, as RF a large regiment, your number probalby a pre-war regular. Lots of RF experts in this site can advise better.

No reason at all why a man could not be both a pre-war regular with hot country experience AND, later, a 9th battalion man.

MM listings [not citations ] on London Gazette site, pursue your man via his number, not his name.

Hope this helps.

[Sparky53]

Pride of place in my grandma's home was a big studio photo of grandfather.in uniform. Seated, he wore kahki drill (those bare knees fascinated me as a child); a sash across his chest, a "pay stick" or cane across his knees and a pith helmet on his lap. Today the memory of that picture and his uniform say to me: " service in India or middle east, maybe Gallipoli", and a studio photo taken in Malta or Egypt on the way back to Europe.

I know tht he was a Royal Fusilier and a few weeks ago I traced his awards card on the internet: "Sergeant, Royal Fusiliers, 9th Bn. Regimental number 9911. Military Medal, France".

But I know tht the 9th Bn never served outside the Uk and Europe. And I doubt they ever wore KD's and pith helmets in France!!

Questions: In what order were the RF regimental numbers allocated?

Could he ever have been in (say) the 2nd Bn RF in 1914?

I wld greatly appreciate some suggestions on this ... and also how I might discover any details about his MM!

I believe that he served from 1914 to 1918, and he wld have been in his mid to late thirties in WW1. His name: Edward Albert Smith (a name which makes WW1 research so much more complicated).

Thanks for reading this.

Alan

I have just been sent a copy of al etter my Gt Uncle Thomas Ridge wrote he evidently served in Royal Fusiliers before transferring to 2 Northants.

His Number was 9997, the letter is dated 28th December 1914

Jane

[Retrac]

I hesitate to disagreee with Grumpy but the R Fus, once war began, seem to have had a number of parallel numbering systems. Each Battalion had its own numbers, often but not always with a prefix such as Stk= Stockbrokers, 10th R Fus; Spts= Sportsmans, I think somehwere in the 20's of Battalions. After a point in I think 1915 when individual Battalions ceased recruiting there was a common numbering and allocating from Depot system for the whole regiment.

So I can quite believe that a 30 something possible pre War regular had a low number, my grandfather joined 7RFus Extra Reserve Bn in August 1914 as 10368 having served with the Regiment in the Boer War. His earlier service number was a low one. He did go to Gallipoli as a replacement in June 1915. My Great Uncle joined 10th R Fus on August 1914 with the number Stk 925, and a number of 10th Bn medal cards don't have the prefix, although admittedly they didn't get into the 9*** sequence.

Hope this isn't too confusing, but tracking a R Fus through either name or number is something of a challenge.

Good luck

David

[Graham Stewart]

To be honest tracking through the Medal Index Cards doesn't really do anything and the picture can only be completed by using those cards to take you direct to the Royal Fusilier Medal Roll Books. These books actually hold the details of battalions he would have served with overseas and if I remember correctly the Royal Fusilier books even give you the dates of service overseas too.

The same applies to any SWB details on the MIC, if there are any details go to the relevant Silver War Badge lists.

As regards your grandfathers number he is only accredited with one on his three MIC's as 9911 Sgt E.A. Smith. The other number you refer to 10368 can only be traced to two others;-

L/10368 Pte Albert Talbot, whom I believe to be a regular soldier due to the 'L/' pre-fix, the 'L' apparently being for "London District", which appears on documents to others regiments recruiting from there. To back this up I have the Discharge Certificate of L/12171 Pte Bert John Wood, who enlisted in London on the 7th August 1906 and was discharged in August 1918 having served 12 years and 9 days with the Colours.

10368 Pte John E. Carter, who is probably a Special Reservist, but unfortunatley has no pre-fix number.

Graham.

[Retrac]

Having had a look at the 3 MiCs for your grandfather one has the GS prefix GS/9911. This prefix is for General Service War Time enlistment so suggests that he wasn't a Regular, unless he signed on having previously completed his Reserve service.

Incidentally The Soldiers Died in the Great War (SDGW) disc has a 9911 for R Fus in the name of Hallowell Morris Lambert, but according to the MiC this is a misprint it should be 19911 Hallowell Norris L.

The adjacent numbers in SDGW are either 3rd or 9th Bn. Numbers 9902 and 9909 were both 3rd Bnn killed in October 1915. Numbers 9916 and 9929 are both 9th Bn one killed 6th and the other 7th October 1916, but 9920 is a man in 8th Bn killed in November 1917. You know from the MiC that your grandfather was in 9th Bn. at some point in the war and the numbers seem to support that even suggesting that he would be there in 1916.

Stebie might be able to help you by finding the entry in the London Gazette listing the award of the MM which may give another snippet. If he doesn't pick up on this thread try a direct question.

Both 8th and 9th R Fus were part of 36th Brigade in the 12th Eastern Division. After long involvement in various elements of the battle of the Somme one of the last actions by the Division before being withdrawn to Arras was an attack on 6/7th Oct as part of the Battle of Transloy. It is possible that 9920 L/Sjt Elliott was transferred between the sister battalions. There is a very good account of their involvement on the Long Trail Website.

Graham is right that the MiCs have limited detail but by linking with other sources it is possible to get a hypothesis working and questions raised which can then be checked by going to Kew to see the primary sources, which ultimately is the solution to most of our problems, if only work didn't get in the way.

David

[Graham Stewart]

David,

I know exactly where you're coming from on trying to compare MIC's with SDGW, but this still doesn't beat using the actual medal roll books. Of those men you produced from SDGW as examples, here are some further details to add to those numbers;-

9902 Pte C.G. Pagram - SDGW - 3rd R.Fusiliers

9909 Pte A. Slater - SDGW - 3rd R.Fusiliers

9909 Pte Henry Bedford - 4th R.Fusiliers

9916 Pte V.C. Robson - N/K

GS/9916 Pte T.A. Thomas - SDGW - 9th Bn,R.Fusiliers

L/9929 Pte J. Phillips - N/K

9929 Pte J. Goodall - 1st R.Fusiliers

PS/9929 Pte G.Smither - SDGW - originally Public Schools Battalion - 9th R.Fusiliers

What causes the problem is that you're running three Special Reserve Battalions alongside the four regular battalions some of whom will have the exact same numbers(Locally Raised units aside), as their regular counterparts, unless pre-fixed.

Either side of his grandfather I can add;-

9910 Pte A.F.V. Starr

9912 C/Sgt E. Buckee

L/9913 - Pte W. Charles.

Personnally I'd still go for the Medal Roll Books and do a search for his service doc's, although the latter may have been destroyed.

Having re-read the posts I see it was your grandfather who served in South Africa and then enlisted into the 7th(E.R.)Bn,RF as 10368, which I picked up in error.

Graham.

[Retrac]

Not disagreeing at all Graham. It's just that those of us who get to Kew once in a blue moon can still come up with ideas to test once we get there, frustrating though it may be. The R Fus numbering systems are risky but with a bit of practice it is possible to do what we both have done and come up with possibilities and then look at those against deployments and history.

David