Old Owl Posted 30 March , 2016 Share Posted 30 March , 2016 Hi All, Does anyone know how many French Croix de Guerres were awarded for the Gallipoli campaign? Also how is it possible to ascertain whether the award would attach a palm or a star emblem--this detail does not appear to be shown via the London Gazette entries. Any help much appreciated. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 2 April , 2016 Share Posted 2 April , 2016 Hi I have not broken down numbers to specific campaigns so can not answer your first question. But as to palms, stars etc, if the LG doesn't state an attachment then the recipient has only been awarded the Croix de Guerre. I have found the following in the LG regards attachments for the Croix de Guerre. With Palm 137 With 2 Palms 1 Silver Gilt Star 6 Silver Star 17 Bronze Star 17 With Star 3 There are approx. 5400 London Gazetted awards of the French Croix de Guerre and they include the above attachments. As can be seen it is very rare to be awarded an attachment of any kind. Most groups of medals I have seen with attachments, once I have confirmed the award of the CdG only once has the recipient been entitled to the attachment. I have just been through 700 French CdG on my database and 13 had Palms and all recipients were either RAF / RNAS / RFC or RN. Hope that helps with part of your question. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 2 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2016 Hi Peter, Thank you very much indeed for coming back to me on this. I had not realised how scarce attachments to the French C de G are, naively I had thought that the majority would have an attachment of some sort, mainly a bronze star---how wrong can one be? Does a similar pattern follow for the Belgian C de G? Does this mean that a soldier receiving an attachment had performed some deed of gallantry which was deemed worthwhile of an attachment/citation, or were such attachments reserved for senior officer awards only? I have come across one officer who is stated to have the Bronze Palm attached to his French C de G: Lt.Col.B.D.Gibson DSO, French C de G with palm, 4th Bn North'd Fusiliers, who was killed in action on 27/5/18. The citation for his C de G relates to the action in which he was killed. Many thanks for your help, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 4 April , 2016 Share Posted 4 April , 2016 Bertrand Dees Gibson is only Gazetted a Croix de Guerre, there is no mention of a Palm in the heading on page 160. I find a great number of recipients have attachments they are not entitled to according to the London Gazette. Possibly after the announcement in the Gazette, they are given their CdG and Certificate and there is mention of an attachment or the attachment is supplied. I am not aware of this personally. The Belgium CdG Gazetted approx. 4700 only 10 Palms Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 4 April , 2016 Share Posted 4 April , 2016 Peter wrote: "Bertrand Dees Gibson is only Gazetted a Croix de Guerre, there is no mention of a Palm in the heading on page 160. I find a great number of recipients have attachments they are not entitled to according to the London Gazette. Possibly after the announcement in the Gazette, they are given their CdG and Certificate and there is mention of an attachment or the attachment is supplied. I am not aware of this personally." I think the problem lies with the input into the London Gazette rather than with the French. Attached below is the French Order for the Croix de guerre to Captain R I Cox, RGA dated 7 July 1918. Note that the citation states that it is an order of the Army which means that he was entitled to a palm on his Croix de guerre but the London Gazette for 29 November 1918 only indicates that he received the decoration (no palm) even though it was published three months after the order for the Croix de guerre to Cox was published. Most likely those who compiled the entry in the London Gazette did not realize that an order of the Army carried with it the award of the palm, or did not care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 4 April , 2016 Share Posted 4 April , 2016 I wonder if this case is in fact similar to that mentioned by Dick above? The record of Alan Urquhart Campbell, MC & Bar, RNVR, shows that, post Gallipoli, he received the Croix de Guerre in January 1916 (ref Div. Order No.345, also RND/C4061) The award appeared in the London Gazette, but over four years later (5th October 1920 – page 9693) Alas, neither his record, nor the LG, mentions a 'palm' His mother, however, mentions it in her memoirs. [she had his letter in which he stated “I was glad to see my 'Croix' had a laurel (sic) spray on it, which is the highest grade” and he also sent her the medal to keep for him (retaining the ribbon for himself)] Any thoughts please Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 4 April , 2016 Share Posted 4 April , 2016 old owl wrote: "Does a similar pattern follow for the Belgian C de G?" The wearing of a palm on the Belgian Croix de guerre was not authorized until 1919 so any announcement of that decoration in the London Gazette prior to that date would obviously not mention the award of a palm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 4 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2016 It does appear that the subtle difference is in the issue of the official certificate which clearly states if any attachment to the ribbon is due. The London Gazette entries, it seems, do not generally record such attachments, so I think that any claim to there being very few awarded with attachments is clearly incorrect without sight of the original and official certificate. The record for Col Gibson as published in the book "When the Lantern of Hope Burned Low" states that he received the Croix de Guerre with Palms--the plural of Palm may be an error but quite clearly this, along with the official citation, is taken from the certificate. Maybe the minimal numbers assumed to be awarded with attachments needs now to be put in question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 5 April , 2016 Share Posted 5 April , 2016 As the Croix de guerre was only awarded when the soldier received a mention in orders and the decree that established the decoration indicated that emblems would be awarded based on the unit level at which the order was issued I think it would be very unlikelythat the French awarded any examples of that decoration without an emblem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 5 April , 2016 Share Posted 5 April , 2016 "As the Croix de guerre was only awarded when the soldier received a mention in orders and the decree that established the decoration indicated that emblems would be awarded based on the unit level at which the order was issued I think it would be very unlikely that the French awarded any examples of that decoration without an emblem." That may be the case with the French Military handing out awards but when it came to the British authorities the only "Mention" they had was the London Gazette. Surely when the French handed over awards en masse, they did not tell the British who got what, but left it up to the branch handing them out. I can't see the French saying that Private Bloggs should get a Palm, unless he was a VC recipient but I can see them asking that General Smith get one. The branch handing these out must have had recommendations / citations to work from, so surely they must have had the authority to add what they felt correct. Of the service records I have seen and that is not a lot, they only ever mention "awarded French CdG", never have I seen mention of attachments of any sort. I can't see the British handing a list of names to the French saying these are to get a CdG and the French then saying who gets a Star or Palm. I can see the British sending a list of names already graded, then the French sending the appropriate medals and paperwork. If that happened then hopefully in the future this may come to light. But right now unless, as Dick has shown above, there is paperwork to substantiate the Star or Palm, then only what is in the London Gazette is what we can go by. I have always been told the LG was the Be all to end all. I am always adding new info to my database, so if anyone has proof of attachments awarded to someone then please let me know. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 5 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 April , 2016 "As the Croix de guerre was only awarded when the soldier received a mention in orders and the decree that established the decoration indicated that emblems would be awarded based on the unit level at which the order was issued I think it would be very unlikely that the French awarded any examples of that decoration without an emblem." That may be the case with the French Military handing out awards but when it came to the British authorities the only "Mention" they had was the London Gazette. Surely when the French handed over awards en masse, they did not tell the British who got what, but left it up to the branch handing them out. I can't see the French saying that Private Bloggs should get a Palm, unless he was a VC recipient but I can see them asking that General Smith get one. The branch handing these out must have had recommendations / citations to work from, so surely they must have had the authority to add what they felt correct. Of the service records I have seen and that is not a lot, they only ever mention "awarded French CdG", never have I seen mention of attachments of any sort. I can't see the British handing a list of names to the French saying these are to get a CdG and the French then saying who gets a Star or Palm. I can see the British sending a list of names already graded, then the French sending the appropriate medals and paperwork. If that happened then hopefully in the future this may come to light. But right now unless, as Dick has shown above, there is paperwork to substantiate the Star or Palm, then only what is in the London Gazette is what we can go by. I have always been told the LG was the Be all to end all. I am always adding new info to my database, so if anyone has proof of attachments awarded to someone then please let me know. Peter Hi Peter, Whereas I understand the fact that the awards gazetted in the London Gazette do not indicate any attachments, quite clearly these awards were mentioned in a French Army Order and certificates were issued indicating attachments and also with citations. Hence it seems that many awards did indeed have attachments regardless of whether or not they were noted in the London Gazette. Of course unless the original sources can be accessed via French records then it is impossible to say exactly which attachments relate to an individual award without sight of the original certificate, but conversely it cannot be said that "many awards did not have attachments" simply because of their ommission from their entry in the London Gazette. It would be fairer and more accurate to note that the total number and type of attachment are unknown due to inadequate records of same. As far as Colonel Bertrand Dees Gibson Gibson is concerned I think that we can take the recorded facts as correct in absence of the original certificate. The entry from the book "When the Lantern of Hope Burned Low" by Rev. R.Wilfrid Callin C.F., published in the 1920's is as follows: French Decorations Croix de Guerre with Palms Lt.Col.B.D.Gibson, D.S.O. "This officer was in command of his Battalion, which was holding the front line trenches on May 27th,1918, in the Aisne sector. He continued to send information of the enemy's advance until his Headquarters was completely surrounded. He then collected all available men of his Headquarters party, and although attacked on three sides it was due to this officer's personal example and total disregard of danger that the enemy were delayed for some considerable time. He was shot through the head and killed whilst standing on the parapet to get a better view of the enemy, who at that time were advancing up a communication trench." Also the book records two awards to other ranks, each with citations and each noted as below: Croix de Guerre with Gold Star 75634 Lce-Corpl. (now Sergt.) M.O'Brien (Aisne) 75463 Pte A.Daniels (Aisne) I can relate the citations for these latter two if required. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 5 April , 2016 Share Posted 5 April , 2016 Robert Yes please on citations for both. I'm not saying that we only go by the LG. But as I stated above, at present that is all we can go by, until as Dick has shown, some evidence comes along to show what attachments were given with each CdG. I for one would love to know each individual's entitlement so I can update my database. It is only with people like you and Dick that I can add info, so please keep it coming. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 5 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 April , 2016 Hi Peter, I am just off out now but will send you the citations this evening. Cheers, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 5 April , 2016 Share Posted 5 April , 2016 Robert: You will note that in the Order I posted in post #5 there is no mention of a decoration, rather it is an extract from an Order at the Army level. Just as the London Gazette announces the names of men who were mentioned in despatches (rather than listing that the men are eligible for the MID emblem) the French announce the mentioning of a man in Orders without any indication of a decoration being awarded. The man was automatically eligible to wear the Croix de guerre when he was mentioned in an Order and the emblem was determined by the level of the Order awarded. Because of this procedure every award of that decoration should be tied to an Order and should bear the emblem indicating the unit level of that Order. It is clear that neither the authorities at the London Gazette or those in the War Office clearly understood this distinction as the letter below from the War Office Foreign Decorations Section accompanying the Croix de guerre to Major Cox mentions only the award of that decoration and does not indicate that any emblem accompanies that decoration even though the Order posted in post #5 above clearly states that is was an Order at the Army Level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 5 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 April , 2016 Robert Yes please on citations for both. I'm not saying that we only go by the LG. But as I stated above, at present that is all we can go by, until as Dick has shown, some evidence comes along to show what attachments were given with each CdG. I for one would love to know each individual's entitlement so I can update my database. It is only with people like you and Dick that I can add info, so please keep it coming. Peter Hi Peter, These are the citations refered to in the order shown previously: "On 27th May,1918, near Revillon, this N.C.O. was in charge of the Lewis Gun Section, and held on to his position after all the supporting troops had retired. He continued to engage the enemy, inflicting heavy losses, until his gun was blown up by trench mortar fire. "Later, near Glennes, he organised his section as riflemen, and assisted in defending the approach to Fismes. His example of courage and tenacity was of great assistance in preventing the premature abandonment of our position to the enemy." and: "on 27th May,1918, near Revillon and near Glennes, this man was in charge of a Lewis Gun Section and held his team together during two assaults on his position. He held his ground until practically surrounded, inflicting heavy losses on the enemy and materially delaying his advance. Throughout the day the steadiness of this man under fire, and his disregard of personal danger was an inspiration to the young soldiers under his command, most of whom were under fire for the first time." I hope that these are of interest, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 5 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 April , 2016 Robert: You will note that in the Order I posted in post #5 there is no mention of a decoration, rather it is an extract from an Order at the Army level. Just as the London Gazette announces the names of men who were mentioned in despatches (rather than listing that the men are eligible for the MID emblem) the French announce the mentioning of a man in Orders without any indication of a decoration being awarded. The man was automatically eligible to wear the Croix de guerre when he was mentioned in an Order and the emblem was determined by the level of the Order awarded. Because of this procedure every award of that decoration should be tied to an Order and should bear the emblem indicating the unit level of that Order. It is clear that neither the authorities at the London Gazette or those in the War Office clearly understood this distinction as the letter below from the War Office Foreign Decorations Section accompanying the Croix de guerre to Major Cox mentions only the award of that decoration and does not indicate that any emblem accompanies that decoration even though the Order posted in post #5 above clearly states that is was an Order at the Army Level. I agree that it is quite clear that no one on the British side fully understood the somewhat unusual system adopted by the French of indicating different levels of awards on the same medal, mainly because the British MID had only one emblem which indicated either single or multiple mentions. Presumably the French War Office will have records of all awards indicating the levels of award with citations if applicable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 5 April , 2016 Share Posted 5 April , 2016 I have heard from others that copies of the French Orders are available but have never had any luck locating them, but my French is not that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 6 April , 2016 Share Posted 6 April , 2016 Hi Robert Many thanks for the citations, I love it when I can get proof like this that foreign awards were not just "brought up with the rations" but hard earned awards. These two could easily have been awarded a DCM or MM with citations like this. I've seen weaker citations get DCM's. I take it that you have listed them in order of your previous post, as I will put each citation with the appropriate soldier. Once again, many thanks. Dick, if you ever find where these orders are, please let me know as I will see if I can pull a few. Thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 6 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2016 Hi Peter, The first is that for L/Cpl O'Brien and the second for Pte Daniels. These were indeed hard won medals and would have certainly merited the award of an MM and more likely a DCM had they been British awards. There is a very similar citation to another NCO of the battalion who was awarded a DCM for the same action on the 27th May,1918. Glad to be of assistance, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 6 April , 2016 Share Posted 6 April , 2016 Peter: Many years ago I received this message from a correspondent - I no longer remember who or when: "I was looking for the citation and details on a Croix De Guerre awarded to Captain Geoffrey Skirrow in 1917. I wrote to the French Ministry of Defence ( Bureau Central d'archives, administratives militaires, Section Citations ), Caserne Bernadotte. Place De Verdun, 64000 PAU, France. After about 4 months I got a certificate, citation copy and a friendly letter." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 6 April , 2016 Share Posted 6 April , 2016 Many Thanks Dick, I will try this out on one recipient and see what happens. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 7 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2016 Peter: Many years ago I received this message from a correspondent - I no longer remember who or when: "I was looking for the citation and details on a Croix De Guerre awarded to Captain Geoffrey Skirrow in 1917. I wrote to the French Ministry of Defence ( Bureau Central d'archives, administratives militaires, Section Citations ), Caserne Bernadotte. Place De Verdun, 64000 PAU, France. After about 4 months I got a certificate, citation copy and a friendly letter." This is most interesting--I wonder if the French Military Archives are in a better state than they were a few years ago? Apparently, according to the information available on-line, they were in a bit of a pickle a few years ago circa 2012/13. It seems that some of the most senior officials were removed from their posts because it was suggested that they did not want lots of material to be made available in the public domain. I cannot see where it is reported that the information is now available--but hopefully it will be? even if it does take several months to obtain copies of same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 7 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2016 Many Thanks Dick, I will try this out on one recipient and see what happens. Regards Peter Hi Peter, Perhaps you could report back, as and when, and if, you have a result. Fingers crossed. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 December , 2019 Share Posted 18 December , 2019 Dear Sir My wifes gardfather William James Dean won the CdG with palm at Gallipoli presented 17 Jan 1916 at Mudros Auth Ordre No 4806 "D" (Extrait) French OMG 24/4/1917 any way to get a copy of the record to understand what he got it for He was in charge of a mining unit I believe Thanks for any help REgrads Stuart McAllister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 December , 2019 Share Posted 23 December , 2019 On 18/12/2019 at 22:09, Stuart McAllister said: He was in charge of a mining unit I believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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