Unknown Captain M.C.: Passchendaele New British Cemetery

[laughton]

I was looking for a Canadian in the area (Map 20 Sectors V.29 and V.30 -Goudberg) in this cemetery and I noticed the entry for this Captain with a Military Cross.

This would have been 2nd Battle of Passchendaele and the British were on the northern flank (left) of the Canadians, particularly in the period 30 October 1917 to 10 November 1917. There are a number of references to the "Artists Battalion" (London Regiment) but not a lot of details on the others but they would include all those in Plummer's 2nd Army with the 4 Canadian Divisions.

I checked the CWGC database and there is only one (1) Captain with the M.C. that is missing at this time and on the Tyne Cot Memorial and that is Captain John Scott Lorimer, M.C. who was serving with the 1st Battalion Norfolk Regiment, attached to the 95th Trench Mortar Battery. I am no aficionado of the British Regiments but the LLT tells me that is in Plummer's 2nd Army, 5th Division, 15th Brigade and that they were in attendance.

Here is the COG-BR: Plot 16 Row A Grave 30

Here is the GRRF: Plot 16 Row A Grave 30 (last entry on page)

[MelPack]

Richard

Congratulations on yet more superb research.

Mel

[MelPack]

There is a photograph of Lorimer and a reference to his death here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/glosters/14532547715

and here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/glosters/14321563797/

Edit: I have just realised this is all the work of Norman (seadog)

[laughton]

Thanks for the LINK - I was able to open it to get to the copy of the letter and the attachments.

One of those had a trench map and it appears to show where Captain Lorimer was killed, which is Map 28 in J14 or J15 (east of Hooge). The name shows up in the bottom left corner as you move your mouse over the map.

The map with the two pins is here under the photograph:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/glosters/sets/72157644927770479/

I do not know the origin of that map and pins but if it is intended to mark the spot then it is not where I place the Norfolk Regiment at the time. There is no explanation for that map, it is just there under the picture and labelled "Captain Lorimer M.C. Killed 1917". Maybe it is not related to Lorimer at all, just a computer glitch of the mouse over?

Perhaps someone with access to the war diaries in the UK could check where the 95th Trench Battery was on November 5, 1917 when he was killed?

Richard

[MelPack]

Richard

Norman should be along soon. I have no doubt that he will be able to answer the queries about the maps.

[laughton]

Updating these "hanging topics" now that I have access to the war diaries and other tidbits available from Ance$try.

 

First of all I have to go back to clarify that we are looking for Captain Lorimer in the 95th Trench Mortar Battery which the LLT tells me is in the 95th Brigade and the 1st Norfolk Regiment is in the 15th Brigade, both of which are in the 5th Division.

 

From the information from "shipscompass" (this link), it appears that Captain Lorimer was in the vicinity of Clapham Junction (28.J.13.d) and Northampton Farm (28.J.15.c.8.7). That is too far away from where the remains were found at 20.V.30.b.2.4, unless the body was moved (as in captured and died later) which does not appear to be the case.

 

I am having some difficulty in finding my way through Ancestry to get the war diary of the 95th Trench Mortar Battery.

 

This appears to be the start of the 5th Division, 15th Infantry Brigade for October 1917 (page 558 orf 650). I have found two (2) sets for the 95th Infantry Brigade, but not the TMB (page 1 of 977) and (page 1 of 473).

 

First of all I now think I have to go back to the beginning and look at all 69 Captains with MCs on the Tyne Cot Memorial. I may have presumed too much taking it as the 2nd Battle of Passchendaele when I started.

 

This may be an illogical search, so first I need to find out when the British were in that area other than when I projected.

[laughton]

Chris's map on the LLT (this link) tells us the area of Goudberg (20.V.29.c.4.4) was home to the British in the period around 10 to 26 November 1917. The Second Battle of Passchendaele (Third Battle of Ypres), 26 October – 10 November 1917 saw Plumer's 2nd Army, II Corps (Jacobs) with the 1st Division, 58th (2/1st London) Division and the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division. The remains were found in this area at 20.V.30.b.2.4, very close to Teall Cottage, about 400 yards north of the Vindictive Cross Roads.

 

I assembled the spreadsheet of the Captains with a Military Cross from the CWGC database but I do not see any that match the 2nd Army/II Corps criteria (November 1917), but I am certainly no master of knowing which units are included. I based my analysis on what was on the LLT that I could see fit the criteria. Two are in August 1917 and two in April 1918.

 

There are two possible in late November-December 1917, as marked in red. I wish there were "Casualty Cards" similar to what we have here in Canada so I could look up those two Captains.

 

surname	forename	initials	death	regiment	unit	Army	Corps	Division	Brigade
DOVE	TOM	T	16-08-17	King's Royal Rifle Corps	12th Bn.
OLDFIELD	JOHN BURLEIGH	J B	16-08-17	Northamptonshire Regiment	2nd Bn.
CAHILL	JOHN ARCHIBALD	J A	16-08-17	Royal Berkshire Regiment	2nd Bn.
SARGINT	EDWARD EATON	E E	16-08-17	Royal Irish Fusiliers	7th Bn.
McMASTER	CHARLES	C	16-08-17	Royal Irish Rifles	7th Bn.	2nd	II	36th (Ulster)	108th
CLAYTON	BENJAMIN CHIPCHASE	B C	16-08-17	West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)	2nd Bn.
MURRAY-MENZIES	DUNCAN INNES	D I	22-08-17	Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)	1st Bn.	2nd	II	9th (Scottish)	26th (Highland)
CALEY	VERNON CHRISTOPHER RUSSELL	V C R	22-08-17	Royal Warwickshire Regiment	7th Bn.
DAVIES	HERBERT HOWARD	H H	24-08-17	Durham Light Infantry	"D" Coy. 10th Bn.
ROUND	HAROLD CECIL	H C	24-08-17	Rifle Brigade	6th Bn. attd. 9th Bn.
MANSON	GERALD PATRICK	G P	24-08-17	Somerset Light Infantry	6th Bn.
WALLACE	GEOFFREY ROBERT	G R	27-08-17	Worcestershire Regiment	7th Bn.
BOGLE	JOHN	J	20-09-17	Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)	5th Bn.
WOOD	HECTOR FREDERICK	H F	20-09-17	Royal Fusiliers	32nd Bn.
TOWN	CHARLES AUBREY	C A	20-09-17	West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)	11th Bn.
BUCKELL	HAROLD CLAUDE	H C	21-09-17	Durham Light Infantry	13th Bn.
HISLOP	JOHN	J	22-09-17	Bedfordshire Regiment	8th Bn. attd. 6th Bn.
WILLIAMS	JOSEPH STEPHENSON	J S	25-09-17	The King's (Liverpool Regiment)	3rd Bn. attd. 4th Bn.
CROOK	LESLIE ARTHUR	L A	25-09-17	The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)	Act. Adjt. 1st Bn.
FORD	FRANCES WILLIAM	F W	26-09-17	Cambridgeshire Regiment	1st Bn.
COSTER	ERNEST	E	26-09-17	Royal Welsh Fusiliers	1st/2nd Bn.
MANN	JOHN CHARLES	J C	26-09-17	Royal Welsh Fusiliers	Adjt. 2nd Bn.
PLIMPTON	ROBERT ALBERT	R A	27-09-17	Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
LEE	AUDLEY ANDREW DOWELL	A A D	01-10-17	Leicestershire Regiment	"A" Coy. 9th Bn.
MATTHEWS	JOHN BREDEL	J B	01-10-17	North Staffordshire Regiment	3rd Bn.
DANCER	ALFRED CHRISTOPHER	A C	04-10-17	Dorsetshire Regiment	5th Bn.
TINLING	GEORGE EVELYN	G E	04-10-17	East Lancashire Regiment	1st Bn.
CORDINER	ROY GROTE	R G	04-10-17	Lincolnshire Regiment	8th Bn.
WOOD	JOHN GEORGE	J G	04-10-17	Seaforth Highlanders	3rd Bn.
HUMPHREYS	FREDERICK CHARLES	F C	04-10-17	Somerset Light Infantry	8th Bn.
COBB	WILLIAM RALPH	W R	05-10-17	Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)	1st Bn.
JARINTZOFF	DMITRI	D	08-10-17	East Lancashire Regiment	10th Bn. attd. 6th Bn.
LA COSTE	CHARLES JOHN CONSTABLE	C J C	09-10-17	General List
MURRAY	ERNEST FRANCIS HUME	E F H	09-10-17	Honourable Artillery Company	Adjt. 2nd Bn.
MOORHOUSE	RONALD WILKINSON	R W	09-10-17	King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry	4th Bn.
WILKINSON	ERIC FITZWATER	E F	09-10-17	West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)	"A" Coy. 8th Bn.
WALLACE	DUDLEY WHISTLER	D W	09-10-17	West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)	1st/5th Bn.
DAY	SHIRLEY CUTHBERT	S C	12-10-17	Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)	10th Bn.
RIGBY	ARTHUR GEORGE	A G	12-10-17	West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)	8th Bn.
SAUNDERS	CLIFFLORD WILLIAM	C W	19-10-17	Dorsetshire Regiment	6th Bn.
BUIST	CHARLES EDWARD	C E	21-10-17	Royal Garrison Artillery	67th Siege Bty.
WOOD	MATTHEW RODNEY	M R	22-10-17	Lancashire Fusiliers	18th Bn.
ABRAHAM	ARTHUR THOMAS	A T	22-10-17	Manchester Regiment	23rd Bn.
WILSON-BARKWORTH	KENNETH ARTHUR	K A	25-10-17	East Yorkshire Regiment	4th Bn.
WILSON	FRED	F	25-10-17	Manchester Regiment	22nd Bn.
GRAHAM	MALCOLM	M	26-10-17	Gordon Highlanders	2nd Bn.
DEMPSTER	DAVID BURNS	D B	26-10-17	King's Own Scottish Borderers	3rd Bn.
LORIMER	JOHN SCOTT	J S	05-11-17	Norfolk Regiment	1st Bn.
MOORE	WILLIAM ERNEST	W E	14-11-17	Royal Field Artillery	86th Army Bde.
CUNDALL	CECIL	C	30-11-17	Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers	2nd Bn.
MACLACHLAN	JAMES MENZIES	J M	02-12-17	General List
RATLIFF	EDWARD FRANCIS	E F	02-12-17	Rifle Brigade	6th Bn. attd. 2nd Bn.
HOLLOWAY	HENRY FRANCIS	H F	11-04-18	East Lancashire Regiment	7th Bn.
SILLEM	THOMAS GEORGE	T G	14-04-18	Welsh Regiment	16th Bn.
WORTLEY	JOHN FRANCIS	J F	14-04-18	York and Lancaster Regiment	4th Bn.
NEILSON	DONALD FRANCIS	D F	15-04-18	Lincolnshire Regiment	3rd Bn. attd. 1st Bn.
BYRNE	HUGH VYVIAN EDWARD	H V E	15-04-18	Norfolk Regiment	8th Bn. attd. 9th Bn.
FAILES	GERALD WATSON	G W	15-04-18	Norfolk Regiment	9th Bn.
CROSBIE	THOMAS EDWARD CHAPMAN	T E C	15-04-18	Royal Irish Fusiliers	9th Bn.	2nd	II	36th (Ulster)	108th
DESPARD	CHARLES BEAUCLERK	C B	18-04-18	6th Dragoons (Inniskilling)
SKINNER	WILLIAM	W	25-04-18	Royal Scots	"D" Coy. 12th Bn.	2nd	II	9th (Scottish)	27th (Lowland)
STEWART	JOHN EBENEZAR	J E	26-04-18	Border Regiment	8th Bn.
HOUGH	ERIC BERNARD	E B	29-04-18	The King's (Liverpool Regiment)	19th Bn.
HENRY	NORMAN	N	08-05-18	The King's (Liverpool Regiment)	17th Bn.
ABBOTT	ERNEST HENRY FORTESCUE	E H F	09-07-18	Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)	4th Bn. attd. 2nd Bn.
RITCHIE		A S	01-10-18	Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)	8th Bn.

[Guest]

    The officer file for Lorimer only adds to the uncertainty.  There is a card for him with ICRC Prisoners-but with a "nothing known" response  in July 1918- indicating he was  never listed as POW-or dead- by the Germans

 

CAPTAIN JOHN SCOTT LORIMER   MC       WO 339/4321

 

 Served 95^th Trench Mortar Battery

Acting Captain at time of death.

2 small reports by Captain Morland  and Lieutenant Edwards- he was picked up by the enemy alive and conscious and taken away on a stretcher.

 

 

 

 

[laughton]

Your last part about the reports of being taken alive does add to the mystery. The area where the remains were found was a known area for the burial of the dead by the Germans.

 

That, however, is weak evidence at best, so unless more information comes forward I think this is a "closed case" for the moment at least.

 

Thanks for checking!!