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Remembered Today:

Can't find MIC or Roll


spud4210

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Hi Paul,

When you say he was sick was that due to military service, wounded, injured etc and as he is pictured in military hospital blues one would assume that he was hospitalised through the military system. What I am getting at, if that is the case, which it is more thank like correct, have you checked the SWB list to see if he is listed as this can be cross referenced to MIC's

Kind regards

Hiram

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Hi Paul,

When you say he was sick was that due to military service, wounded, injured etc and as he is pictured in military hospital blues one would assume that he was hospitalised through the military system. What I am getting at, if that is the case, which it is more thank like correct, have you checked the SWB list to see if he is listed as this can be cross referenced to MIC's

Kind regards

Hiram

He's not there that I can see.

Craig

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The BT 351 and BT 350 are for William Bristow Murphy, b 26/12/1894 Bootle.

He has Mercantile Marine Ribbon and BWM Ribbon issued April 1920 through MMO Canning Place, Liverpool.

Mercantile Marine Medal issued Jan 1924 through MMO Kirkdale

The BWM issued via 'Army' no number or office given.

No indication of Victory medal whereas 10930/597744 has both on his roll.

Perhaps the relevant Medal Roll is an odd one that's not on ancestry??

TEW

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The BT 351 and BT 350 are for William Bristow Murphy, b 26/12/1894 Bootle.

He has Mercantile Marine Ribbon and BWM Ribbon issued April 1920 through MMO Canning Place, Liverpool.

Mercantile Marine Medal issued Jan 1924 through MMO Kirkdale

The BWM issued via 'Army' no number or office given.

No indication of Victory medal whereas 10930/597744 has both on his roll.

Perhaps the relevant Medal Roll is an odd one that's not on ancestry??

TEW

It's an odd one. The MIC should be at the N/A though - even if the N/A had lost the MIC before the indexing the medal roll should still have the details.

Craig

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Dairy for 2/7th is very good, naming ORs who go on leave, sick, wounded, pay increases, course of instruction etc. Working backwards from July at present.

Odd entry in May 1917.

CONTINUATION OF SERVICE

Block of 5 men with 2651** numbers were held to serve under MSA session 2 of 1916.

TEW

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Block of 5 men with 2651** numbers were held to serve under MSA session 2 of 1916.

So 5 men who were due for release (but retained under the MSA) - that would suggest they were all pre-war territorials who would have done their service + 1 year.

Craig

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Hi Paul,

When you say he was sick was that due to military service, wounded, injured etc and as he is pictured in military hospital blues one would assume that he was hospitalised through the military system. What I am getting at, if that is the case, which it is more thank like correct, have you checked the SWB list to see if he is listed as this can be cross referenced to MIC's

Kind regards

Hiram

Hi Hiram,

Yes i have looked for but to no avail.

Paul

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It's an odd one. The MIC should be at the N/A though - even if the N/A had lost the MIC before the indexing the medal roll should still have the details.

Craig

Hi Craig and TEW,

Thanks for the input. What you guys have found in one sitting took me what seemed like months!!

The diaries for the 2/7th are quite comprehensive and William is noted a couple of times namely for pay increase 13/05/17, promoted to lance corp and when he was invalided 18/01/18.

So you can can see why i was wondering why his (if he has one)Medal Roll doesn't reflect his service number.

I'm thinking of applying to the M.O.D. to have his medals issued in his KLR number. I know they don't re-issue WW! medals anymore but if there is no evidence of him receiving such I have nothing to lose!!

Paul

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Hi Craig and TEW,

Thanks for the input. What you guys have found in one sitting took me what seemed like months!!

The diaries for the 2/7th are quite comprehensive and William is noted a couple of times namely for pay increase 13/05/17, promoted to lance corp and when he was invalided 18/01/18.

So you can can see why i was wondering why his (if he has one)Medal Roll doesn't reflect his service number.

I'm thinking of applying to the M.O.D. to have his medals issued in his KLR number. I know they don't re-issue WW! medals anymore but if there is no evidence of him receiving such I have nothing to lose!!

Paul

I'd suspect they'd refuse as you can't prove they weren't received and/or returned - you can but try though.

Craig

Have you discounted this one Click

Mike

I'd say he can be ruled out Mike. When the initial number was issued he was away at sea.

Craig

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Have you discounted this one Click

Mike

Hi Mike,

Think I have to as his KLR service number is wrong 10930 was apparently issued around August '14. Another KLR man Uriah Bone had that number also he served in the 2nd Battalion in India.

Paul

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Snipped

The diaries for the 2/7th are quite comprehensive and William is noted a couple of times namely for pay increase 13/05/17, promoted to lance corp and when he was invalided 18/01/18.

Paul, sorry but I've just looked for the entries 13/5/17 and 18/01/18 and can't see him. There are appendices mixed up all the way through so maybe on one of those?. Any chance of a link to the page, an ancestry page number or pdf download page number.

As to the MOD thing, medals apparently have been re-issued in cases where they were returned (not collected). But, supporting evidence had to be supplied in the form of the MIC that says 'returned'.

TEW

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Snipped

Paul, sorry but I've just looked for the entries 13/5/17 and 18/01/18 and can't see him. There are appendices mixed up all the way through so maybe on one of those?. Any chance of a link to the page, an ancestry page number or pdf download page number.

As to the MOD thing, medals apparently have been re-issued in cases where they were returned (not collected). But, supporting evidence had to be supplied in the form of the MIC that says 'returned'.

TEW

Sorry TEW,

My bad...... was dated 13/05 but actually published 2 months later 15/07 (proficiency pay). Invalided 18/01 published on 30/01, page mixed up in December's pages. He was appointed Unpaid Lance Corp 29/09/17 published same

Paul

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Just for others to see his number in print while he's in France. I've tried all sorts of ways to find a MIC. Not sure if he went back to France later in 1918 after recovery from sickness. Some of his close numbered colleagues where transferred to Labour Corps and their 2665** numbers don't lead you to their medal roll. Using name and 'Labour Corps' does find them with the additional 2665** KLR number.

The Liverpool Daily Post wounded list (July 17) is not to do with the invaliding in Jan 1918 or the photo in Hospital Blues. He was not promoted to L/Cpl. until Sept 1917 and is wearing his stripe in the photo which must be post-Jan1918.

Surprised there's no mention of a wound or 'to hospital' circa May/June 1917 in diary, they seem to mention everything else.

Did spot that Btn. officers met 'Liverpool Daily Post' at brigade HQ, but this was Aug 17.

I'm not sure if his BWM entitlement is due to Army or Merchant Navy service even though it was issued via Army. That could confuse his Victory entitlement?

At least we know he's B Coy.!!!

TEW

post-34209-0-53156200-1458294186_thumb.j

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I'm not sure if his BWM entitlement is due to Army or Merchant Navy service even though it was issued via Army. That could confuse his Victory entitlement?

He should still have entitlement but as to who issued it... the VM first was authorised in Sep 1919, a few months after the BWM was authorised.

Wiki says Men who transferred in or out of the Mercantile Marine from or to the fighting services also qualified for the award of the Victory Medal and, if appropriate, the 1914 Star or 1914–15 Star, while still being eligible for the Mercantile Marine War Medal. Service solely in the Mercantile Marine, however, did not count for the award of the Victory Medal or either of the two Stars.[1]

Sorry TEW,

My bad...... was dated 13/05 but actually published 2 months later 15/07 (proficiency pay). Invalided 18/01 published on 30/01, page mixed up in December's pages. He was appointed Unpaid Lance Corp 29/09/17 published same

Paul

Did you get a copy of the Marine Medal Index Card from the N/A (the link I posted earlier) - it may well have some info on it that would help.

Craig

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A (long shot) but there doesn't seem to be any other obvious WB Murphy

Prudential Assurance Roll of Honour
post-51028-0-77400000-1458298106_thumb.j

Craig

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I think the Prudential list looks good.

MN medal card attached. His BWM ribbon was issued via Liverpool MMO. But the actual Medal via 'Army'.

There are 2665** men with compulsory transfers to Labour Corps who show on LC rolls but presumably with KLR embossed medals?

I know that doesn't seem to apply to WBM but I've tried KLR & LC rolls with all sorts of number variations.

His dates with MN into 1915 should mean his BWM entitlement came about from MN service. If issued via Army then that's an odd roll.

But then there's the missing Victory, entitled due to KLR service.

TEW

post-34209-0-64386500-1458316328_thumb.j

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MN medal card attached. His BWM ribbon was issued via Liverpool MMO. But the actual Medal via 'Army'.

That's odd - what it usual to issue the ribbons and then play catchup ? - I wonder if the army never issued the medals on the assumption the MN had sorted it. If Murphy never queried it further then no-one would ever know.

I know that doesn't seem to apply to WBM but I've tried KLR & LC rolls with all sorts of number variations.

Same here - it's more than just Ancestry's indexing.

Craig

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A (long shot) but there doesn't seem to be any other obvious WB Murphy

Prudential Assurance Roll of Honour

attachicon.gifCapture.JPG

Craig

Morning,

The Prudential list would not be him as it's a list of who were employees of Prudential and who died?? William was a ships trimmers down in the coal bunkers!! And plus he died in '39

As for your question if the MN sorted out his medal is an interesting one that we hadn't thought about.

Paul

Edited by spud4210
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Morining,

The Prudential list would not be him as it's a list of who were employees of Prudential and who died?? William was a ships trimmers down in the coal bunkers!! And plus he died in '39

As for your question if the MN sorted out his medal is an interesting one that we hadn't thought about.

Paul

Not just those who died but who served & survived - many rolls have two parts. If it's not him then it's probably the other W B Murphy which also helps rule him out.

Craig

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Not just those who died but who served & survived - many rolls have two parts. If it's not him then it's probably the other W B Murphy which also helps rule him out.

Craig

The plot thickens, thanks for your help Craig

Paul

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Just for others to see his number in print while he's in France. I've tried all sorts of ways to find a MIC. Not sure if he went back to France later in 1918 after recovery from sickness. Some of his close numbered colleagues where transferred to Labour Corps and their 2665** numbers don't lead you to their medal roll. Using name and 'Labour Corps' does find them with the additional 2665** KLR number.

The Liverpool Daily Post wounded list (July 17) is not to do with the invaliding in Jan 1918 or the photo in Hospital Blues. He was not promoted to L/Cpl. until Sept 1917 and is wearing his stripe in the photo which must be post-Jan1918.

Surprised there's no mention of a wound or 'to hospital' circa May/June 1917 in diary, they seem to mention everything else.

Did spot that Btn. officers met 'Liverpool Daily Post' at brigade HQ, but this was Aug 17.

I'm not sure if his BWM entitlement is due to Army or Merchant Navy service even though it was issued via Army. That could confuse his Victory entitlement?

At least we know he's B Coy.!!!

TEW

attachicon.gifmurphy.jpg

Thanks TEW, don't know what else to do....

Paul

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Took this from TNA website on Merchant Navy entitlement:

British War Medal -automatically awarded to all recipients of the Mercantile Marine Medal.

Paul says there was only ever the Mercantile Marine Medal. I'd go with what Craig said about the MN assuming the army issued or would issue the BWM.

Still can't get my head around the fact that he must have given an address when he attested which would be the default address for automatic sending out of Victory. But it's such an odd thing for BWM & Victory to be (badly dealt) with by two different services. Maybe his name being absent from KLR roll for BWM entitlement or showing as a duplicate ie 'BWM issued MMO Liverpool' made the medal office think he either had a Victory via the MN (not possible) or that the lack of BWM information obscured him for the Victory.?

Had he chased it up I'm sure they would have been issued. But away at sea, maybe not concerned, who knows.

Paul, did you have this on his other ships?:

142717 Minnedosa

135583 Aquitania
136791 Metagama

You could try another post in Ships & Navies on this forum, it's not so much as 'Can't find the MIC or Medal Roll' it's more, 'there isn't one, why not!!'

Someone with more knowledge on MN medal issuing practice may be able to help.

TEW

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Merchant navy did not get victory medal and only qualified for war medal if sailed through a war zone.

The mercantile marine war medal was issued as well if sailed through war zone

If transferred to army and only served at home then not entitled to victory medal. He may have been injured at home or in Ireland hence the hospital blues.

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