IPT Posted 9 March , 2016 Share Posted 9 March , 2016 According to SDGW, there were three 17th King's Liverpool casualties, killed in action on 2nd July 1917; 51583 HV Johnson 47163 E Cooil 57999 FW Birks Johnson and Cooil are buried in Perth Cemetery (China Wall), Johnson in II. C. 26, and Cooil in II. A. 45. Next to Cooil, in II. A. 44 is an unknown 17th KLR soldier, killed 2/7/1917, whose cross was broken with no name. Naturally, i'm thinking that it's probably Birks, who is remembered on the Menin Gate Memorial, but is there any way to find out more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 9 March , 2016 Share Posted 9 March , 2016 I would have thought that if you can substantiate the figures in SDGW from the war diary, then it pretty much has to be Birks. I looked up Cooil on CWGC and noted that the "unknown" man killed 2/7/17 is on the same concentration report. As CWGC already has known burials for two men, then the third man - originally buried in the same cemetry as Cooil - then it's Birks. And a great find by you. Of course, if the war diary gives different figures, it becomes trickier as we know that SDGW is not always 100% accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 10 March , 2016 Share Posted 10 March , 2016 The 89th Infantry Brigade diary has a casualty count in its appendages, dates a marked as 1/2 2/3 3/4 and so on, the 2/3 notes 4 killed and 1 wounded for the 17th Kings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 10 March , 2016 Share Posted 10 March , 2016 From what I can see the effects register only has 3 CooilJohnsonBirks Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 10 March , 2016 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2016 Thanks for the responses, chaps. Stephen Nulty very kindly gave me access to his transcription of the 17th KLR war diary. This shows that the battalion were holding the front line - OBSERVATORY RIDGE SECTOR, YPRES. Unfortunately, there are no casualties recorded on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd July, until a patrol on 4th July in which Lt Aiden Chavasse and Lt C E Peters were killed. However CWGC records our three men as casualties on 2nd July, and 52872 B Bottomley and 49013 H Brooks on 3rd July. Brooks is in Perth (China Wall) and Bottomley in Railway Dugouts (Transport Farm). Bottomley and Brooks both died of wounds (SDGW) - does this possibly explain the figure in the 89th Brigade diary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 10 March , 2016 Share Posted 10 March , 2016 It's important not to over complicate matters. SDGW has three names died 2/7. CWGC has the same three names in its records, died same day - with no other battalion deaths that day. It has two known burials and one "missing". it also has one unknown body killed the same day. I cannot think of a logical scenario that says it isnt Birks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 10 March , 2016 Share Posted 10 March , 2016 I think John is spot on - there is no reason to believe it could be anybody else I've had a look through the official history and also Graham Maddock's 'Pals' book, but can't add anything Nottingham Evening Post 19th July 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 11 March , 2016 Share Posted 11 March , 2016 Thanks for the responses, chaps. Stephen Nulty very kindly gave me access to his transcription of the 17th KLR war diary. This shows that the battalion were holding the front line - OBSERVATORY RIDGE SECTOR, YPRES. Unfortunately, there are no casualties recorded on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd July, until a patrol on 4th July in which Lt Aiden Chavasse and Lt C E Peters were killed. However CWGC records our three men as casualties on 2nd July, and 52872 B Bottomley and 49013 H Brooks on 3rd July. Brooks is in Perth (China Wall) and Bottomley in Railway Dugouts (Transport Farm). Bottomley and Brooks both died of wounds (SDGW) - does this possibly explain the figure in the 89th Brigade diary? Bottomley is shown in the effects records as having died on 3 July 17 at 96 CCS. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 March , 2016 Share Posted 11 March , 2016 Some info on Birks, from a friend of mine who has an interest in 17/KLR To France 12/12/16. Joined D Coy 17 Bn 17/12/16. Kia 2/7/17. His body was found and buried but was subsequently lost. Stephen - the newspaper extract is useful extra information confirming the 2/7 death. It should go with any submission to CWGC for recognition of that grave. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 11 March , 2016 Share Posted 11 March , 2016 I had hoped that there may be a newspaper report of his death, but have been unable to locate anything. I did note the short interval between his date of death (2nd July) and the "In Memoriam", published on 19th July Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 12 March , 2016 Share Posted 12 March , 2016 IPT Now we're as certain as we can be that you've identified the occupant of the grave, are you now intending to make the submission to CWGC for the grave to be properly recognised? You'll need to build a step-by-step argument, attaching a copy the documentation where it exists, rather than just referring CWGC to it. As I see it, the steps need to include: 1) the SDGW information recording three deaths 2) attaching the Soldiers Effects entries recording the same three deaths 3) Drawing CWGC's attention to their own database which records the same three (the above builds the information that there are only three deaths) 4) Drawing CWGC's to where those three are buried/commemorated 5) attaching the reburial documentation which refers to the Unknown KLR man I think I would start the submission with something along the lines of "I believe I have identified the soldier buried in grave XXX as ........and submit the following information And I would conclude the submission, after detailing all the evidence, with something along the lines of "It is clear that only three men were killed on the day. As the graves of two men are known, the third man must be the "unknown" man buried in grave XXX" The person you want to send the submission to is Nic Andrews ( commemorations@cwgc.org ) I understand that these things can take 6 - 12 months to conclude. It'd be great if you could keep the forum posted about how you get on. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 12 March , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2016 Thanks, John. I will follow your advice, and post any updates here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 13 March , 2016 Share Posted 13 March , 2016 PM me if I can advise/assist further. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 29 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2016 For those following this case, I have received an email from David Avery, CWGC Commemorations Officer, as follows; "Further to our correspondence last month, please be aware that I have now completed the Commission’s review for the case of Private Frederick William Birks; 57999 that you presented. The case, accompanied by our review will now be passed onto the relevant service authority (in this instance the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defence) for final adjudication. As I am sure you can appreciate this may take some time to resolve, however, you will of course be informed of any progression when this occurs. " Will keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 30 April , 2016 Share Posted 30 April , 2016 Thanks for the update and cracking job so far ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 On 29/04/2016 at 15:37, IPT said: For those following this case, I have received an email from David Avery, CWGC Commemorations Officer, as follows; "Further to our correspondence last month, please be aware that I have now completed the Commission’s review for the case of Private Frederick William Birks; 57999 that you presented. The case, accompanied by our review will now be passed onto the relevant service authority (in this instance the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defence) for final adjudication. As I am sure you can appreciate this may take some time to resolve, however, you will of course be informed of any progression when this occurs. " Will keep you posted. IPT any further news on this case Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micks Posted 3 January , 2018 Share Posted 3 January , 2018 Alan The time frame for JCCC approval is all over the place. The first case which I submitted was that of Sergeant McLynn in October 2014. However another report which was lodged in January 2016 was approved first by the JCCC. I recently had a case approved by the JCCC which dated from April 2016 yet I still have cases from October 2015 which are still out standing. The CWGC has not examined any of the cases which I submitted after July 2016. In addition I had a report which had been approved by the CWGC and yet rejected by the JCCC. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 8 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2018 Dear all, I recently received a letter from the MOD confirming that, after concuding their research and adjudication, they are in agreement that the grave is that of William Frederick Birks. There is a re-dedication ceremony planned for Pte Birks at 15:00 on 3rd July 2018 at Perth Cemetery (China Wall). They have made contact with a great niece who has said that she would like to do the personal inscription for the grave. Many thanks to everyone that has assisted and posted above. A great result! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyH Posted 8 May , 2018 Share Posted 8 May , 2018 Well done to 'IPT' I say! BillyH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 8 May , 2018 Share Posted 8 May , 2018 Brilliant work mate, absolutely brilliant. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 8 May , 2018 Share Posted 8 May , 2018 IPT Well done and congratulations alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 10 May , 2018 Share Posted 10 May , 2018 Private Frederick William Birks remembered today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 10 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2018 Brilliant! Thanks, Alan. Great that you managed to visit his grave, and hope you found your KOSB man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 10 May , 2018 Share Posted 10 May , 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 10 May , 2018 Share Posted 10 May , 2018 IPT it was a nice addition to the trip, which everyone found interesting, the story behind the grave. Found my KOSB man and paid my respects. For next year, I think we will visit the cemetery again to see the new headstone in place. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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