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Remembered Today:

Unknown 17th KLR Soldier - Killed 2/7/1917


IPT

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According to SDGW, there were three 17th King's Liverpool casualties, killed in action on 2nd July 1917;

51583 HV Johnson

47163 E Cooil

57999 FW Birks

Johnson and Cooil are buried in Perth Cemetery (China Wall), Johnson in II. C. 26, and Cooil in II. A. 45. Next to Cooil, in II. A. 44 is an unknown 17th KLR soldier, killed 2/7/1917, whose cross was broken with no name.

Naturally, i'm thinking that it's probably Birks, who is remembered on the Menin Gate Memorial, but is there any way to find out more?

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I would have thought that if you can substantiate the figures in SDGW from the war diary, then it pretty much has to be Birks.

I looked up Cooil on CWGC and noted that the "unknown" man killed 2/7/17 is on the same concentration report. As CWGC already has known burials for two men, then the third man - originally buried in the same cemetry as Cooil - then it's Birks. And a great find by you.

Of course, if the war diary gives different figures, it becomes trickier as we know that SDGW is not always 100% accurate.

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The 89th Infantry Brigade diary has a casualty count in its appendages, dates a marked as 1/2 2/3 3/4 and so on, the 2/3 notes 4 killed and 1 wounded for the 17th Kings

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Thanks for the responses, chaps.

Stephen Nulty very kindly gave me access to his transcription of the 17th KLR war diary. This shows that the battalion were holding the front line - OBSERVATORY RIDGE SECTOR, YPRES. Unfortunately, there are no casualties recorded on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd July, until a patrol on 4th July in which Lt Aiden Chavasse and Lt C E Peters were killed.

However CWGC records our three men as casualties on 2nd July, and 52872 B Bottomley and 49013 H Brooks on 3rd July. Brooks is in Perth (China Wall) and Bottomley in Railway Dugouts (Transport Farm). Bottomley and Brooks both died of wounds (SDGW) - does this possibly explain the figure in the 89th Brigade diary?

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It's important not to over complicate matters.

SDGW has three names died 2/7. CWGC has the same three names in its records, died same day - with no other battalion deaths that day. It has two known burials and one "missing". it also has one unknown body killed the same day. I cannot think of a logical scenario that says it isnt Birks.

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I think John is spot on - there is no reason to believe it could be anybody else

I've had a look through the official history and also Graham Maddock's 'Pals' book, but can't add anything

Nottingham Evening Post 19th July 1917

post-1356-0-37818000-1457637947_thumb.pn

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Thanks for the responses, chaps.

Stephen Nulty very kindly gave me access to his transcription of the 17th KLR war diary. This shows that the battalion were holding the front line - OBSERVATORY RIDGE SECTOR, YPRES. Unfortunately, there are no casualties recorded on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd July, until a patrol on 4th July in which Lt Aiden Chavasse and Lt C E Peters were killed.

However CWGC records our three men as casualties on 2nd July, and 52872 B Bottomley and 49013 H Brooks on 3rd July. Brooks is in Perth (China Wall) and Bottomley in Railway Dugouts (Transport Farm). Bottomley and Brooks both died of wounds (SDGW) - does this possibly explain the figure in the 89th Brigade diary?

Bottomley is shown in the effects records as having died on 3 July 17 at 96 CCS.

Craig

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Some info on Birks, from a friend of mine who has an interest in 17/KLR

To France 12/12/16. Joined D Coy 17 Bn 17/12/16. Kia 2/7/17. His body was found and buried but was subsequently lost.

Stephen - the newspaper extract is useful extra information confirming the 2/7 death. It should go with any submission to CWGC for recognition of that grave.

John

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I had hoped that there may be a newspaper report of his death, but have been unable to locate anything. I did note the short interval between his date of death (2nd July) and the "In Memoriam", published on 19th July

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IPT

Now we're as certain as we can be that you've identified the occupant of the grave, are you now intending to make the submission to CWGC for the grave to be properly recognised?

You'll need to build a step-by-step argument, attaching a copy the documentation where it exists, rather than just referring CWGC to it.

As I see it, the steps need to include:

1) the SDGW information recording three deaths

2) attaching the Soldiers Effects entries recording the same three deaths

3) Drawing CWGC's attention to their own database which records the same three

(the above builds the information that there are only three deaths)

4) Drawing CWGC's to where those three are buried/commemorated

5) attaching the reburial documentation which refers to the Unknown KLR man

I think I would start the submission with something along the lines of "I believe I have identified the soldier buried in grave XXX as ........and submit the following information

And I would conclude the submission, after detailing all the evidence, with something along the lines of "It is clear that only three men were killed on the day. As the graves of two men are known, the third man must be the "unknown" man buried in grave XXX"

The person you want to send the submission to is Nic Andrews ( commemorations@cwgc.org )

I understand that these things can take 6 - 12 months to conclude. It'd be great if you could keep the forum posted about how you get on.

John

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  • 1 month later...

For those following this case, I have received an email from David Avery, CWGC Commemorations Officer, as follows;

"Further to our correspondence last month, please be aware that I have now completed the Commission’s review for the case of Private Frederick William Birks; 57999 that you presented.

The case, accompanied by our review will now be passed onto the relevant service authority (in this instance the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defence) for final adjudication. As I am sure you can appreciate this may take some time to resolve, however, you will of course be informed of any progression when this occurs. "

Will keep you posted.

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Thanks for the update and cracking job so far !

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  • 1 year later...
On 29/04/2016 at 15:37, IPT said:

For those following this case, I have received an email from David Avery, CWGC Commemorations Officer, as follows;

"Further to our correspondence last month, please be aware that I have now completed the Commission’s review for the case of Private Frederick William Birks; 57999 that you presented.

The case, accompanied by our review will now be passed onto the relevant service authority (in this instance the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defence) for final adjudication. As I am sure you can appreciate this may take some time to resolve, however, you will of course be informed of any progression when this occurs. "

Will keep you posted.

 

IPT 

 

any further news on this case

 

Alan 

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Alan

 

 The time frame for JCCC approval is all over the place.

 

The first case which I submitted was that of Sergeant McLynn in October 2014. However another report which was lodged in January 2016 was approved first by the JCCC.

 

I recently had a case approved by the JCCC which dated from April 2016 yet I still have cases from October 2015 which are still out standing.

 

The CWGC has not examined any of the cases which I submitted after July 2016.

 

In addition I had a report which had been approved by the CWGC and yet rejected by the JCCC.

 

 

 

Mick

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 4 months later...

Dear all,

 

I recently received a letter from the MOD confirming that, after concuding their research and adjudication, they are in agreement that the grave is that of William Frederick Birks. 

 

There is a re-dedication ceremony planned for Pte Birks at 15:00 on 3rd July 2018 at Perth Cemetery (China Wall).  They have made contact with a great niece who has said that she would like to do the personal inscription for the grave.

 

Many thanks to everyone that has assisted and posted above.  A great result!

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Well done to 'IPT'  I say!  :thumbsup:

 

BillyH.

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Brilliant work mate, absolutely brilliant.

 

Pete.

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IPT

Well done and congratulations 

 

alan 

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Private Frederick William Birks 

 

remembered today

DCE3A0C3-740C-4CBF-A697-7B7A40E5FB33.jpeg

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Brilliant! Thanks, Alan.

 

Great that you managed to visit his grave, and hope you found your KOSB man.

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IPT

 

it was a nice addition to the trip, which everyone found interesting, the story behind the grave.  

 

Found my KOSB man and paid my respects.  

 

For next year, I think we will visit the cemetery again to see the new headstone in place.

 

Alan

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