Large UK training area with Jolly Farmer pub and military railroad 190

[Moonraker]

I hope that the Mods will allow this thread to stay, as any training area of the size described and its facilities would have been in use in 1914.

This magazine article

describes training on "the rugged waste known as Salisbury plain" and refers to "a narrow-gauge railroad fully equipped in every detail, with semaphores, switches, crossovers,signal cabins and other railroad devices", along which trundles an armoured train with Maxim and other quick-firers, passing by mocked-up buildings, including the "Jolly Farmer inn".

Definitely not Salisbury Plain! There were only two lines on the Plain in 1907, both standard gauge and providing a civilian service. And, apart from those on the first page, the scenes in the photographs don't look much like the Plain.

Was there any such facility in England before the war?

(A mile north of the Bustard Inn a 'tank practice railway' ran close to Shrewton Folly - a copse, not a structure - and into Blackball Firs. Of 2ft 6in gauge, it carried an unmanned 'locomotive' consisting of an engine on a chassis and a trolley carrying a tank-shaped screen at which artillery fired. It is said to have opened in 1916, but tanks were a British 'secret' weapon until September that year and the Germans did not launch their own versions until early 1918. One wonders if the British army would have been sufficiently ahead of the game to have provided anti-tank training in 1916 and the railway does not feature in a large-scale map of 1924. By 1960 it had fallen into disuse.)

Frederick A Talbot was a British writer of popular works on science and engineering subjects. Here's his

on-line books page

with several titles of military significance, including

Aeroplanes and Dirigibles of War

Moonraker

[johnboy]

This might help. Pix and maps and lidar overlayed.

http://www.darch.org.uk/Category/Wiltshire/SPTA-Places/Shrewton-Folly/i-82rRF2x/A

[Moonraker]

Fascinating stuff, John, thanks!

Here's a pic that I took c1962. Wish I had taken more! I suspect that I may have been a bit nervous about straying from the pathways.

The wonders of technology! The original measures 8 x 12cm, and the enlarged scan has shown up detail I'd never noticed before.

Moonraker

[Talbotwoods]

That is the loop in Blackballs Firs.

The past you can see now is competency overgrown and mostly filled in, however, if you want to scrabble about in the area you can still found some elements of the track-way. It is the Wickham Target Trolley turntable that gives it location way,

As far as I have been able to ascertain, you are right in your assertion, there were no military railway of any kind until they built the Hamilton Lines Railway and all the other military lines.

So yes like yourself I do think Cross was incorrect when he wrote the date 1916 date in The Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Magazine, and from what I have been able to find from a the track that was moved up to Black Heath the track was cast in 1916! This was confirmed from the foundry records

The best evidence I been able to find at present does indicate that the 'Z' track was built 1951, but the original inverted 'V' may have been built with a cable operated tow target system in 1931. However, until I have managed to get to snuffle in the IWM and RA archives I cannot confirm.

This map is the 1950 revision, and the 'Z' sure as hell ain't there http://www.darch.org.uk/Category/Wiltshire/SPTA-Places/Shrewton-Folly/i-hpn3WBG/A

Back to the main item, the target range may have been the one at Enford Down, which from records showed that it was a used to test the destruction of German and Russian QF gun (as per the example that Operation Nightingale raised a couple of years ago), but I think you may find the "Jolly Farmer" pub may have been at Chalk Hill rifles ranges just outside of Sandridge. I recall reading a passing reference to it in an archaeology/historical report on the site, I'll see if I can find it for you

BTW may I kidnap you photo to add it to may records (not for public dissemination)

Cheers

Tim

[Moonraker]

Very useful information, Tim - and welcome to the Forum.

Here's a contact print next to that of the photo already posted:

I suppose those are rails, though they look a bit wide apart for a narrow-gauge track.

(Some other scenes in the set of contacts are also puzzling, and I should have captioned them back in 1962. The next contacts show Nissan huts, probably at Knook Camp, then there are some of tumuli on Snail Down near Everleigh damaged by tanks whose drivers obviously thought they were fun to ride over. In between is a magnificent ecclesiastical building, presumably somewhere in Wiltshire, that I can't identify.)

David McOmish et al in Field Archaeology of the Salisbury Plain Training Area (English Heritage 2002) states that the Shrewton Folly tramway was laid down in 1916. Some accounts say it was used to carry ammunition, but its configuration favours the claim that it was used for towing a target "tank" (a canvas or hessian screen) mounted on a trolley for artillery to fire at. The Shrewton village website states that the tramway started being used in 1923.

Jeffery Grayer, Rails across the Plain (Noodle 2011), has a section on the "Tank Practice Railway". Track consisted of mineral-quarry steel rails bolted to pressed-steel square-ended sleepers. It was manufactured by Hudson of Gildersome Foundry. An engine shed with turntable was provided, and the total track length was two miles. Being within the military firing range, it was not normally accessible, but a 1971 report says that some track had recently been lifted and some cuttings filled in to make vehicle crossings.

The meticulous N D G James describes the tramway in Gunners in Larkhill (Gresham 1983) and mentions it crossing a smaller, independent line which was cable operated and ran from a shed at 097476 in Blackball Firs to 091476.

In 1948 Brigadier F FitzGibbon recalled two ranges being constructed near Blackball Fits in WWII: "a simple crossing target on rails and the other a towed target range with cable below ground level", neither of which descriptions would appear to relate fully to the tramway.

(All of which adds to possible confusion!)

Yes, Tim, you're very welcome to kidnap my photo - and to use it where you will. And if you can pinpoint the Jolly Farmer, that would be very useful. It would also be interesting to see any precise references in the foundry records and whether these can be matched to the Blackball Firs line, rather than the Hamilton Battery, laid c1915-16 two miles to the south east, the light railway at Porton Experimental Station or, indeed, temporary tramways laid at some camps, such as Codford and Sutton Veny.

Moonraker

Edit: a more comprehensive discussion of the date of origin appears on one of the pages to which Johnboy and Tim have linked above.

[Moonraker]

The more I think about this the more I'm inclining to the view that in the past there's been conflation involving the Hamilton Battery and Shrewton Folly tramways. The first was certainly laid c1915-16 and I've never come across a contemporary WWI reference to the latter.

Moonraker

[johnboy]

Not quite on topic but this is a pic of RFC/RFA machine gunner training using a rail system. Taken from Lancashire Fusilier

thread re WW1 motors.

[Moonraker]

I wonder if Talbot was confusing the

Longmoor Military Railway

with Salisbury Plain?

A tramway was laid at Longmoor in 1903 and relaid to standard gauge in 1905-07. The Web references I've come across suggest soldiers' training related to driving operations and track laying and maintenance, rather than in "fighting".

I wonder what

this history

has to say?

Moonraker

[Talbotwoods]

Hi Moonraker

Many thanks for the photos much much appreciated.

The date in Field Archaeology of the Salisbury Plain Training Area was derived directly from the article written by Donald Cross in Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Society Magazine Vol 66, where Cross based the building of the railway on a length of Railtrack that bore a date of 1916. However Cross assumed that this was the date it was laid. Since then I have been able to ascertain that the track was only made in 1916, and have confirmed this by sighting both the original item and form one remaining piece at the side of the Devizes Road on Black Heath, both of which have the date 1916 cast on them.

As noted before the whole system had two distinct building phases:

The first being the inverted V track that was cable pulled, in fact some of the track, sleepers and cable pulling rigs still exist, and there is still a lovely example of the cable pully in Blackball Firs itself. The records indicate that it was first built as moving rifle range (presumably for the various Browning and later for early designs of the Boy Rifle) in 1923, then in 1931 it developed into the first armoured moving target range. This was based on a 18" gage track, with a 3" depth tack mounted on pressed-steel square-ended sleepers (Hang on there is more to come), however this is NOT the track refereed to in Rails across the Plain, but most definitely is the one described in Gunners in Larkhill. This one had its power house in Little Folly Clump and the footprint of the building can just be made out still

The second phase, the 'Z' track is the one refereed to in Rails across the Plain and that was built across the original cable tracks way, hence when looking at an aerial image (or even LiDar) you can see it goes over the trackbed. When this was built this was built of the mineral track manufactured by Hudson of Gildersome and was a 2'6" track on which the targets ran on Wickham Target Trollys (these were disposed of in 1979, and if I can convince a certain scrap man near Rollestone to let me photo it, there is one in his yard!). Other than a shelter at Shrewton Folly, target change position (Platform) and a track junction lever, everything has been removed. I have obtained a maintenance record from the Wickham of Ware that indicates there were three trollies which were re-engined in 1967, all of the standard Wickam target gauge of 2'6" and design.

I concur that FitzGibbon appears to confuse the two, but, (yes it is a big but) and this is something I am trying to confirm, it is possible that elements of the original V track (or parts of it at least) may have been brought back into use during WW2.....And that certainly may be the case due to the amount of erosion and wear on the remaining pully structures.

One thing I am certain of is that Maj D.F Ryan RA in The Journal of The Royal Artillery (Vol. XCVII No.1 March 1970), hit it fully on the head, when he noted "The Larkhill Military Railway is sometimes confused with the tramway built around Blackball Firs between the wars as part of the anti-tank range." I have seen quite a few items of confusion in articles over the various railways, including in one official regimental diary! Which is why I tend to err on the side of caution until I have double written confirmation on each point. Oddly an I am not sure I actually have very little on Hamilton Lines Railway, which is soemthing I do need to address

And having been wandering on the tracks for the past few years with DIOs knowledge, I can be 100% sure I am not mixing Shrewton with Longmoor

I'll also get hold of the archivist at Clayton Equipment Ltd and get a photocopy of the original sales dockets form Hudsons (who were liquidates in 1984). The goodwill passed to Clayton Equipment who are still very active in narrow gauge railways and still use Robert Hudson in their marketing

Shortly I will be updating the information on the above web link, but I have do a bit more digging around which has been suggested by a certain Senior Archaeologist at DIO, who rightly has hinted I need to also cover the original rifle ranges.....

Tim

[seaJane]

Moonraker, if you want to pm me a copy of the ecclesiastical building image I can probably identify it. sJ

[Moonraker]

Hi Moonraker

And having been wandering on the tracks for the past few years with DIOs knowledge, I can be 100% sure I am not mixing Shrewton with Longmoor

Tim

Fascinating stuff, Tim, thanks. My suggestion was that it was Talbot who was confused, placing Longmoor on Salisbury Plain. Sometime I'm hoping to glance at the history of the Longmoor Military Railway (my second link in post 8) to see if any description of the system in it early days matches Talbot's. (Polite hint to anyone who has a copy ...)

Moonraker, if you want to pm me a copy of the ecclesiastical building image I can probably identify it. sJ

Thanks to you too, Jane. In fact I've just ID'd it as Malmesbury Abbey.

Moonraker

[Moonraker]

Keeping to the same locality - and returning to the Great War, Tim may be interested in this postcard:

Looking at it again, I wonder if I might have been a bit bold about my claim about the track? It could have been Decauville track laid temporarily in connection with camp construction (as at Codford). "The small rail wagon" is to the right of the cyclist. The road is the Packway, which runs through Larkhill Camp.

(BTW, a card showing the Royal Train, aka the Sir John Jackson Special, on the Larkhilll Military Railway in February 1915 has failed to attract any interest on eBay, despite the vendor dropping the price to a bargain-basement £7.50. Worth at least three times that.)

Moonraker

PS Tim: you're welcome to "capture" the above photo.

[Moonraker]

Here's a crop enlargement showing the "small rail wagon"

I'm hoping that someone will say that's the sort of trolley used to move artillery shells - rather than just a discarded set of bogies.

Moonraker

[MBrockway]

Keeping to the same locality - and returning to the Great War, Tim may be interested in this postcard:Hamilton Battery.jpg

Moonraker

PS Tim: you're welcome to "capture" the above photo.

I'm certainly interested - my grandfather was in 12/KRRC in 20th (Light) Division and would have been present at that review.

Being visible in this actual picture is a somewhat remote possibility, but I'd be very interested in knowing the source and whether a higher resolution version is available.

Cheers,

Mark

[Moonraker]

Mark: my scan is of a postcard photograph taken by A F Marett of Shrewton, who was a prolific publisher of postcards of military activities on Salisbury Plain. Most of his photographs were for use on postcards, but a few were published in national newspapers and magazines.If you would like to PM me your email address, I can certainly have a go at scanning to a higher resolution. (But please allow me two or three days to do so.)

Moonraker

[Moonraker]

More modern photos of the Shrewton Folly anti-tank range railway

 

Here

 

The Darch website is also worth searching for other modern photos of Salisbury Plain - target tanks etc.