Bayonets for the Bavarian Werder 69 n.M.

[trajan]

Yes, it is a Great War question - well, related at any rate as the bayonet at least saw service 1914-1918!

Just out of curiosity as I have been trying to get to grips with some of the 'altered' etc, bayonets used by the German armies in WW1. As I understand it, the basic Werder Gew.69 as used by the Bavarians only in 1871, was subsequently modified with a Gew.71 barrel to become the Gew.69 n.M., so as to accommodate the Gew.71 cartridge (this being in accordance with the 1871 Constitution, Article 63).

So, did this re-barrelled Werder Gew. 69 n.M. take the existing Werder M.69 bayonet? Or were the bayonets now adapted to S.71 specifications? From what I have been able to track down in published literature the Bavarians did alter their Werder bayonets to Gew.71 standards - but I got the impression that this was only after they adopted the Gew.71 itself in 1877 or so...

Any thoughts appreciated!

Trajan

[dman]

Here is reference I found

http://www.collectorssource.com/bayonets-1/bavarian-werder-rifle-bayonet.html

Bavarian Werder bayonets were not compatible with the Mauser barrels

Dont know if were subsequently modified

[trajan]

Thanks Dman. Yes, the Bavarians certainly did adapt their M.69 bayonets to fit the Gew.71 but I was confused and uncertain about the exact chronology and what was going on...

The Gew.69 n.M was introduced (or so I have read) in 1875, but Bavaria did not adopt the Gew.71 proper until 1877. What I was unsure about was if the 1875 modification with the replacement Gew.71 barrel resulted in a Gew.71 bayonet fitting also.

Rebarrelled rifles did not always require a change in the bayonet fitting system. For example, the 1902 (or thereabouts) rebarrelling of the Turkish M-P 1874 to suit a new calibre cartridge specified that the end product retain the original muzzle width and side fitting for the M.1874 bayonet...

Trajan

[trajan]

I think I have it sorted now... But the information in the four sources available to me here is contradictory - and is so even between Franz's vol I and III... What I do need is Storz's book on this rifle, but I can't quite afford that one just yet...!!! And so, if anyone can correct me, please do so!

The original IS.M/69 for the Werder-Gewehr 69 has a Parierstangenring of 17-17.5 mm

The IS.M/69 aptiert was for those Gew.M/69 re-chambered (as I understand it) for the Gew 71 cartridge in December 1875, and is thinner and lighter, with a narrower blade width, and the back of the pommel ground off, and has a MRD of 17.4-17.5.

The IS.M/69 apt.u.M. comes in two versions, both being modifications of the IS.M/69 aptiert. One is for those Gew.69 modified (as I understand it) by being fitted with a Gew.71 barrel, and has a single stage cut along the back of the pommel, and so will fit also the Gew.71 (adopted by Bavaria in 1882) and the 71/84. The other has a double-stage cut along the back of the pommel for fitting to the Gew.88, this version sometimes(?) having a recess cut into the back of the muzzle ring for the barrel jacket of that rifle.

What I am still uncertain about is the date the Bavarians had their Gew.69 rebarelled... The answer is probably in Storz's book - do any of you rifle buffs out there have this and if so, would you please check? Thanks in hopeful advance!

Trajan

[Michael Haselgrove]

What I am still uncertain about is the date the Bavarians had their Gew.69 rebarelled... The answer is probably in Storz's book - do any of you rifle buffs out there have this and if so, would you please check? Thanks in hopeful advance!

Trajan

Julian,

I haven't the time to check Dieter Storz's book in detail. However, at page 81 referring to the Gew. M/69 n/M he writes: "The new rifles were ready at the end of 1878".

Regards,

Michael.

[trajan]

I haven't the time to check Dieter Storz's book in detail. However, at page 81 referring to the Gew. M/69 n/M he writes: "The new rifles were ready at the end of 1878".

Thanks Michael! I'll get the uni library to order it - they owe me a favour or two!

The chronology does seem rather stretched though. Yes, we all know the Bavarians were often (deliberately?) slow at adopting Prussian initiated changes. But a 2-3 year wait to re-chamber for the cartridge, and then another 2-3 years to change the barrel, and then another 2-3 years to adopt the actual Gew.71? I can understand Bayern not wanting to throw their investment in the M/69 to one side, but even so! There again, as we all know, from the slowness in the change over from the SMLE and its bayonet to the No.4, governments don't like doing things tooooo fast... LLooking at the Bavarian records for bayonet changes in WW1, which I have been doing lately, it still took them (as Carter noted) until 1917 to formally adopt the S.98/05 as the single service Bayerische bayonet, all others - including the S.69 in its various manifestations then being declared obsolete - but that was wartime.

Anyway, this is just very much background research, into things I have no knowledge of but want to know more about, in those odd snatched minutes of spare time when I should be doing other things(such as checking comments on another type of bayonet!). I have been in essence simply perusing Franz's volumes when it's coming up time for bed (better than sleeping pills!)... I see now that one of the things which confused me was his statement in vol III, which I had evidently mis-understood, that, when looking at the bayonet bars and attachment systems, "es gibt keinen sichtbaren unterschied zwischen dem Gew.M.69 und M.69 aptiert" - not having fully understood the difference between those two and the Gew.M/69 n.M. (sound of slapping of head...).

Thanks again,

Julian

[Steve1871]

Hey TRAJAN 

The M69n/M Werder with M71 barrel and lug was set for the M71 bayonet. I have not been able get one these rifles, the vast ammount of M69 rifles were converted. But I have been able over the years to try IS71 bayonet's to the new model Werders , and they fit perfect. I just had a friend check an Is71 on an unaltered Werder, would not fit