Cemetery postcards

[AliceF]

If he was buried in the German cemetery in Villers les Roye, then he was probably reburied already before 1922 in Roye St Gilles - according to info on cemeteries in the Volksbund member journal. Since the cemetery at Villers was destroyed due to fighting in 1918, many soldiers are not identified. In Roye there are 2790 unidentified German soldiers buried - he might be among them.

Interesting reference at the denkmalobjekt site actually. First time that I see that somebody has transcribed lists from a newspaper.

 

Christine

[AliceF]

“9.10.15

Dear Marie

I was happy to receive your letter and saw that you were very worried about me. I am still all right.

Now we are in a different position, in a village, looks bad as well. Jakob Ertle was also killed in action, at the 25^th of September near Ypres - if this sad time was soon over.

With heartily greetings your xxx xxx xxx

 

I’ll be happy to see you again”

 

 

[”9.10.15

Liebe Marie

Deinen Brief mit Freuden

erhalten und gesehen daß du so

bekümmert bist um mich, geht

mir noch gut. Sind jetzt wieder

in einer anderen Stellung in

einem Dorf, sieht auch bös aus

Der Ertle Jakob ist auch gefallen

am 25. Sept bei Ypern, wäre mir bald

die traurige Zeit vorbei. Es grüßt

dich herzlich dein xxx xxx xxx

 

Wiedersehen macht Freude“]

 

The card was sent to Wasselnheim (Wasselone).

 

Jakob/Jacob Ertle from Stoßweier is mentioned three times in the Verlustenliste: twice as seriously wounded, the third time as killed in action. http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/3076410

He has a known grave in Menen http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=33dc4af018ca4095c7bfd848eb2cbbe9&cHash=69d1a847b5282121a3946a81ebca47c5

 

Nothing I could find out about the sender (could not read the name at the end or the stamps besides Garde-Infanterie, 7. Komp. and Garde Ersatz Division, but parts are missing.

 

Christine

 

Source of the card: https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collections/cartes-postales/france-autres-communes-54/vigneulles-meurthe-et-moselle-friedhof-cimetiere-soldat-allemand-guerre-1914-18-animee-10-octobre-1915-155430041.html

[Dragon]

Interesting. Stoßweier is Stosswihr, in the vallée de Munster in Alsace (as I'm sure you know, Christine, but others might not). An Alsacien serving in the German army, he's not listed on the Stosswihr war memorial.  I do understand that he was of German nationality.  

 

Edit. He is listed with a French name. See below.

Edited 29 January , 2017 by Dragon

[mva]

12 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Interesting. Stoßweier is Stosswihr, in the vallée de Munster in Alsace (as I'm sure you know, Christine, but others might not). An Alsacien serving in the German army, he's not listed on the Stosswihr war memorial.  I do understand that he was of German nationality.  

from 1870 on, Alsatiens were German ! If they stayed in Alsace, they were in the German army.

This one : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/fr/contributions/20487 was in the French Army (he had gone to le Havre) but his two brothers were in the German army

or here : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/fr/contributions/11570 : one brother in French army, the other in Germn. army

This one in Germ. army : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/fr/contributions/11986

(many other instances in the Europ. 14-18 pages)

and : http://www.1418-survivre.net/

Many Alsatians were sent at first to the Eastern front, but 1918 to the Western Front - and so had to shoot at French soldiers ...

[CROONAERT]

7 minutes ago, mva said:

from 1870 on, Alsatiens were German ! If they stayed in Alsace, they were in the German army.

 

 

There were actually a hell of a lot of Alsaciens in the French Army... in 1885, some 45% of the Légion étrangère was made up from men from Alsace (and German Lorraine) but , in 1889, metropolitan French regiments began to welcome them with open arms too. The exodus of men of fighting age from Alsace and Lorraine into the French Army became such a problem to the Germans that legislation was passed inflicting harsh punishments on those that 'defected'. This must have had some effect as, by 1903, men from Alsace and (German) Lorraine only made up some some 6% of the Légion étrangère , with an even lesser percentage in the metropolitan units.

 

An interesting case is that of David Bloch... an Alsacien Jew who tried to enlist into the French Army to avoid conscription into the German Army. Rejected, he worked in a factory until offering his services as a spy for the French but the 'plane in which he was carried behind German lines crashed and he was captured. He was executed on 1st August 1916.

Regarded as a traitor by the Germans and a patriot by the French, a monument to him is located outside of Guebwiller French and German Cemetery )this is the 2nd monument to Bloch, the original having been destroyed by the Germans during WW2).

 

Quote

Many Alsatians were sent at first to the Eastern front, but 1918 to the Western Front - and so had to shoot at French soldiers ...

 

I seem to recall that the half-Alsacien 29th Infantry Division fought on the Western Front and was specifically moved from the Vosges to Artois to defend the area of Notre-Dame de Lorette due to their renowned tenacity. The 58th Brigade in particular - which contained a larger than usual number of Alsace-Lorrainers - fought well and lost extremely heavily during 1914-15 in this sector. They remained on the Western Front throughout the war and took part in many major actions (Champagne (X2), Somme, Lys). By the end of 1917, however, it had lost its Alsace/Lorraine identity almost completely

 

 

Dave

[mva]

55 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Interesting. Stoßweier is Stosswihr, in the vallée de Munster in Alsace (as I'm sure you know, Christine, but others might not). An Alsacien serving in the German army, he's not listed on the Stosswihr war memorial.  I do understand that he was of German nationality.  

from 1870 on, Alsatiens were German ! If they stayed in Alsace, they were in the German army.

This one : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/fr/contributions/20487 was in the French Army (he had gone to le Havre) but his two brothers were in the German army

or here : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/fr/contributions/11570 : one brother in French army, the other in Germn. army

This one in Germ. army : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/fr/contributions/11986

(many other instances in the Europ. 14-18 pages)

and : http://www.1418-survivre.net/

Many Alsatians were sent at first to the Eastern front, but 1918 to the Western Front - and so had to shoot at French soldiers ...

post scriptum : in 'my' French Forum there is a discussion about Alsatians : http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/qui-cherche-quoi/alsacien-guerre-savoir-sujet_14115_1.htm

Edited 27 January , 2017 by mva

[Dragon]

 

On ‎27‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 19:15, mva said:

from 1870 on, Alsatiens were German !

 

 

I know. That's why I said, "I do understand that he was of German nationality."   I didn't want to hold up the thread by spelling out exactly what I know. My comment was that he isn't on the local memorial.

 

Edit. He is. See below.

Edited 29 January , 2017 by Dragon

[AliceF]

Great with all the info on the region!

But could it not be ERTLE Jaques? On the memorial I mean. I have seen that German names were changed to French?!

Christine

[Dragon]

I wondered whether he had a French name as well.

[AOK4]

9 hours ago, AliceF said:

Great with all the info on the region!

But could it not be ERTLE Jaques? On the memorial I mean. I have seen that German names were changed to French?!

Christine

 

That's indeed Jakob Ertle.

He died on 25 September 1915 and belonged to the 11th company Infantry Regiment 172. This unit belonged to the XV Army Corps which fought around Ypres from October 1914 to December 1915. This corps came from the Alsace.

 

Jan

[Dragon]

Inevitably, then, he wasn't Mort pour la France. I wrote two blog posts on the problem of memorialising Alsacien men.

 

 "His heart is French!"  refers to propaganda: "Sous l’uniforme allemand son cœur est français"

 

Bitter grief: allegorical women on war memorials in Alsace.

 

I also put a fairly extensive post which touched on the issues here. (GWF)

 

Gwyn

Edited 29 January , 2017 by Dragon
Link

[AOK4]

7 hours ago, Dragon said:

Inevitably, then, he wasn't Mort pour la France. I wrote two blog posts on the problem of memorialising Alsacien men.

 

 

All German soldiers from Alsace-Lorraine were considered to have the same rights as French soldiers after the war if the family accepted being French. This meant that their names (even having served in the German army) were inscribed on the local (French) war memorials and they could be reburied home or on another French cemetery of the family's choice. In some French cemeteries one can spot crosses with German names and German units "mort pour la patrie".

 

Jan

[AliceF]

Thanks for the links, Gwyn! I specially like your wonderful webpages with the beautiful photo comparisons of the memorials.

 

Interesting about the treatment of German soldiers in Alsace-Lorrain after the war, Jan, and that this was connected to becoming French.

That explained that the first name was changed to a French form but the family was kept.

When one looks here http://www.memorialgenweb.org/memorial3/html/fr/resultcommune.php?idsource=48428  (Gwyn's link above)  there seems to be quite a couple of names with German sounding family names and French first names.

 

I suppose that this the monument in question: http://geneamunster.alsace/index.php/en/articles/releves/les-monuments-aux-morts-du-canton-de-munster/145-le-monument-de-stosswihr

 

Christine

[Dragon]

7 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

All German soldiers from Alsace-Lorraine were considered to have the same rights as French soldiers after the war if the family accepted being French. This meant that their names (even having served in the German army) were inscribed on the local (French) war memorials and they could be reburied home or on another French cemetery of the family's choice. In some French cemeteries one can spot crosses with German names and German units "mort pour la patrie".

 

Jan

 

I used italics because I was using a French phrase. As GenWeb says,  Sauf mention contraire les soldats dont les noms sont mentionnés pour 1914-1918 étaient de nationalité allemande et ne sont donc pas tous Morts pour la France. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

Alice, yes, that is the memorial. I have driven past it many times. It's interesting to see an early photo and the site is great. Not far down the road from the memorial, there is a stone casque Adrian on a plinth, a borne Vauthier at the point where the front line was from 1915 to the end of the war, erected here to commemorate those soldiers who suffered in the heights of the vallée de Munster. It was restored in 2014 by the community. (I can't include a photo unless I compress it.) This whole section of the vallée de Munster is overlooked by the battle area of Reichackerkopf to the south and the southern parts of le Linge area such as Hörnleskopf to the north. (I have some postcards of Stosswihr, Soultzeren and Ampfersbach on which soldiers have marked the front line, but they're outside the scope of your thread.)

 

Gwyn

[AliceF]

When it comes to Alsace the landscape descriptions are always very beautiful. Hopefully I’ll get there at some time again - have been to Strasbourg a couple of times and Colmar, but that has been a long time ago.

Today something with connection to Hesse (where I come from). Not often that I have seen a card using “gelt” (dialect for “isn’t it? “or “right?”). Where I was brought up it was “gelle”. Thought it was typical for Hesse, but can read it was used in South Germany and Austria.

„20.2.16.

My dear Frieda! This is the latest taking of the local military cemetery. Pretty [*], isn’t it?

1000 hearty greetings

Yours Heinrich”

 

Sender: Heinrich Montag [?] R.A.M. Kol 47, 25. R. Div.

 * Pretty like in pretty girl.

"20.2.16

Meine liebe Frieda! Die letzte

Aufnahme des hiesigen Militär-

friedhofes; Hübsch, gelt?

1000 innige Grüße

Dein Heinrich“

 

This card makes me wonder once more about how these cemetery postcards were received by those who got them.

 

Christine

Source of the card:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Argonnen-Verdun-Soldatenfriedhof-25-Hess-RD-1916-nach-Mainflingen-37897-/201735930512?hash=item2ef8660290:g:8bUAAOSw-0xYQUO6

[AliceF]

“25th of January 1917

 Dear relatives,

I have received your card some time ago and thank you very much for it.

I have gone through bad times. Was from the 23^rd of August to the 17^th of January at the S.

Could not celebrate Christmas, we could hardly think of it. Now I am resting [? =in Ruh], and I am still all right.

Best regards

Alfred Kretzschmar

 

212. Inf. Div.

12 R. Jäger Btl.

4. Komp.”

 

[”Den 25. Jan. 17

Liebe Verwandten,

Ich habe Eure Karte vor

einiger Zeit erhalten, wofür ich

bestens danke. Die letzte Zeit

habe ich recht schlecht verlebt. War

vom 23. Aug.-17. Jan. an der S.

Weihnachten konnte ich nicht

feiern, wir hatten kaum Zeit

daran zu denken. Jetzt bin ich

in Ruh, und es geht mir soweit

noch gut. Herzlichen Gruß

Alfred Kretzschmar”]

 

Christine

Source: ebay.de (lost the exact link)

[trajan]

212. Inf. Div.12 R. Jäger Btl.... 

 

A Saxon unit, they were certainly on the Somme for periods in 1916, but my not-to-reliable-source says that they left in November for 'Stellungskampfe" in the Champagne.

[AliceF]

8 hours ago, trajan said:

212. Inf. Div.12 R. Jäger Btl.... 

 

A Saxon unit, they were certainly on the Somme for periods in 1916, but my not-to-reliable-source says that they left in November for 'Stellungskampfe" in the Champagne.

I never get which unit belongs where. Well, S for Somme is probably very likely. I also do not understand when it was allowed to mention place names (some do openly) and when  not (often avoided). So explaining that the rest of the time was spent equally bad in Champagne was maybe not an option.  

 

Back to the 12 R Jäger Batl.: the post stamp mentions 212 Inf .Div. Here http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Jäg.B_12  the 23. Div. is mentioned. the 23. Div: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/23._Division_(Alte_Armee) was fist at the Somme and then in Roye (which is Somme?!):

 

29.08.1916 - 30.10.1916: Schlacht an der Somme

30.10.1916 - 15.03.1917: Stellungskämpfe bei Roye-Noyon

 

But as I said, I never get this, so I probably should not speculate.

 

Found this - off the topic: on the way to the Somme: https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/8105014416/in/photolist-9L7qin-pVKLUg-q86B9V-pVx7oH-dmdjpS-jBMGno-btzzKj-pTnxEP-ak11Xn-dz5SXd-bFfp1s-8p6RSi-bFfoJs-ErhY6U-cSw3z1/

 

Christine

[AliceF]

And here the ones that did not come back (from the Somme or anywhere else):

 

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2014/koeniglich-saechsisches-1-jaeger-bataillon-nr12 _a-g_wk1.html

 

But I would not know if the Reserve would be included here or not.

C.

[AOK4]

Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon 12 is a totally different unit (a lot of people do not realize the importance of the German unit designations reserve, landwehr, etc. Each is a completeley different unit in the field, so the losses of RJB are not in the Ehrentafel of JB 12). Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon 12 belonged in the beginning the 23. Reserve-Division and not 23. Infanterie-Division (that was the active Jäger-Bataillon 12).

Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon 12 was transferred to Jäger-Regiment 9 (199. Infanterie-Division) in the second half of 1916 (Galicia) and this regiment then transferred to the 212. Infanterie-Division in January 1917. In March 1917, RJB 12 was transferred out of the 212. Infanterie-Division and tresferred to Jäger-Regiment 10 in the 101. Infanterie-Division (Macedonia).

And another thing: wikipedia and similar websites are very bad sources to get information about the German army in WWI. One really needs some (mostly quite old and rare) books for that kind of information. Unfortunately, Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon 12 doesn't have a unit history, which makes it hard to find out where they have been exactly.

 

Jan

[AliceF]

Thanks for the clarification, Jan!

Yes, I was afraid I would go into the Wikipedia and the Reserve trap - again.

 

Christine

[AliceF]

Billet 16th of June 1915

 

Dear Mum

Received your xxx greetings.

Thank you very much.

Everything is well here.

Want to visit Tüxen [family name] now, who was xxx in Sörup [village near the sender’s home place].

He is lying in a field hospital.

He shot off one of his fingers due to carelessness.

Kind regards and 1000 kisses to you all

Your dad!

 

“Quartier 16. Juni 15

 

Liebe Mamma

Deine xxxgrüße erhalten

herzlichen Dank hier alles

Wohl. Will gleich mal Tüxen

ehemals xxx [Bote?] in Sörup besuchen

liegt im Lazarett. Hat sich selbst

ein Finger abgeschossen aus Unvor-

sichtigkeit. Herzliche Grüße u. 1000

Küße sendet an euch alle Euer Papa!"

 

Christine

Edited 12 March , 2017 by AliceF

[AliceF]

 

Not sure if I got it all right:

 

25.IX.15. At Lützen [?]

 

Dear parents!

I send you here a nice postcard. It shows a military cemetery. It was situated near our 1. position [?]. We passed it every evening. Heroes of the Jägerbataillon No 3 are buried here. They were killed in action xxx in an attack. At the moment we are at Lützen [?]. We have a long journey behind us. But more about this in a letter. Anyway, here you can send me a big parcel.

Heartily greetings your

Karl

 

"25.IX.15. bei Lützen [?]

 

Liebe Eltern!

Hier schicke ich Euch eine

schöne Karte. Sie zeigt Euch einen

Soldatenfriedhof. Bei unserer 1. Stellung

war er [?]. Jeden Abend gingen

wir daran vorbei. Helden des

Jägerbataillons No 3 liegen da

begraben. Sie fielen xxx

bei einem Sturmangriff.

Z. Zt. liegen wir bei Lützen [?].

Wir haben eine lange Fahrt

hinter uns. Doch das nähere [???]

in einem Brief. Hier [?]

könnt Ihr mir jedenfalls auch

ein großes Paket schicken.

Herzl. Grüße Euer

Karl"

 

Christine

 

Source of the card: http://www.akpool.de/ansichtskarten/26358677-ansichtskarte-postkarte-deutscher-friedhof-in-russland-soldatenfriedhof-i-wk

 

 

[ilkley remembers]

Hi Alice,

 

I don't know if you have seen the German ebay site but if you use this link you will find literally hundreds of German cemetery cards many WW2 but also a lot of WW1. Quite a few show the rear of the card and many have messages written upon them. The great thing about 'Ebay Picclick' is that you don't have to scroll through to find what you want they are all on one page.

 

https://picclick.de/Sammeln-Seltenes/Militaria/?q=friedhof

 

EW

Edited 25 March , 2017 by ilkley remembers

[AliceF]

Hi,

Thanks for the info about Picclick!

With the card below I would need help. I would be thankful if anyone could possibly fill in the missing parts or correct mistakes:

“Frankreich 17/10. 1915

[line upside down, see below]

Meine liebe Frieda!

habe Deinen lieben Brief vom

11/10 am 15/10 mit großer

Freude erhalten sage auch

meinen besten Dank.

Liebe Frieda xxx [family name] Otto

wäre auch gefallen. Da

erfahrt Ihr doch in der

Heimat mehr wie wir.

Habe das noch nicht ge-

wußt man hält es doch

nicht xxx [vor? = für?] möglich. Sind bei

der Feuerstellung nicht

weit von einander und

griecht [? kriegt= bekommt?] nichts davon zu er-

fahren. Liebe Frieda habe dein

liebes Päckchen erhalten sage

auch meinen besten Dank.

 

Across:

Hat vorzüglich

geschmeckt.

[the rest I can not read]

 

Upside down:

Grüße an Eltern + Gesch [?] xxx u. xxx

 

Front:

Brief folgt

Grüße an

Eltern u.

xxx

 

xxx

xxx liegen hier

 

Something like:

 

"France 17/10 1915

[Line upside down see below]

My dear Frieda!

Have received  your dear letter from the 11/10 on the 15/10 with great joy. Thank you very much.

Dear Frieda, [family name] Otto was killed in action. You are better informed at home than we are. I did not know, unbelievable, we are not far from each other at the front and still we do not get to know. Dear Frieda have received your lovely parcel, thank you very much.

 

Across:

Tasted excellent

[The rest I can not read]

 

Upside down:

Greetings to parents + brothers and sisters [???] xxx and xxx

 

Front:

Letter follows. Greetings to parents & xxx

xxx xxx are buried here

 

Christine

Source of the card:

http://www.akpool.de/ansichtskarten/25566091-ansichtskarte-postkarte-amifontaine-aisne-soldatenfriedhof-eingangstor-i-wk