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Remembered Today:

Wounded and blighty ?


Ian N Megson

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Hi.

Just trying to piece together a bit more about my Grandfather and where and when exactly he was wounded

HIs name was Harry Megson and he was in the 2nd Battalion, the Duke of Westminsters (West Riding) Regiment.

He was involved in the fighting at the Battle of Poelcapelle from the 9th - 12th October 1917.

He was returned to 'The Depot' on the 10th December 1917, with gun shot wounds to the head and left leg.

I tended to think that his injuries were received during the heavy action at Poelcapelle, where almost 290 men were wounded, but does this seem a long time before being returned to the depot ??

Would it be possible that he would be tended in a hospital (of sorts) from the middle of October to the 10th December or does anyone think his injuries might have occurred after the 9th - 12th October.

I would have thought that any casualties from the battle of Poelcapelle would have been dealt with as quickly as possible.?, having said that, my grandfather did have a metal plate put in his head, so maybe that necessitated a longer stay in hospital

From reading the war diaries only a small number of men were wounded after the middle of October

Any thoughts or help on this matter would be much appreciated.

Thanks

N

PS when the war diary refers to 'The Depot' what exactly does that mean ?

Thanks again

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Assignment to the 'depot' was often an administrative function to account for those men who had been sent back to the UK for hospital treatment.

Craig

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Possibly treated in a Military Hospital in France and then sent back to the UK for further treatment or recuperation.

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I'd assume The depot was the regiment's home HQ - normally the County Town Barracks or similar, for a time pending re-posting overseas. If so one can only assume his wounds weren't bad if he was up and about that quickly. As mentioned, there would be a degree of recuperation involved too.

Oh, it's Duke of Wellington's - not Westminster's.

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Alternatively, he may have been sent back to the UK for treatment and then sent back to one of the Infantry Base Depots in France, mostly at Etaples, for some final convalescence and "battle hardening" before being sent back to his unit. Although it is difficult to read too much into a single word, the phrase "returned to the Depot" might not apply if his transfer to a home depot was just for administrative reasons and really only referred to his paperwork.

That said, men were often released from UK hospitals into the care of "Command Depots" for convalescence. But in any case, I would say that six weeks or so was not unusual for a man wounded seriously enough to be shipped back to the UK before, in effect, starting his journey back to the front.

Ron

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Would it be possible that he would be tended in a hospital (of sorts) from the middle of October to the 10th December or does anyone think his injuries might have occurred after the 9th - 12th October.

Impossible to say, Ian.

It would be usual for a man, with serious wounds, to be only treated in France until his condition was sufficientlt stabilised to allow evacuation back to the UK. So, possible he was seriously ill and couldnt be moved for two months. Equally possible that the wounds were later.

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Harry Megson went to France sometime in 1916 with the 8th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers as Private 27345.

At some point, possibly after being wounded he was issued 23800 in the West Riding Reg't.

He was discharged on 8th February 1918 with SWB Number 333277 (List 0/926/2) due to his wounds including a plate in his skull that you mentioned.

The SWB Roll shows he enlisted 9 December 1915 As you might expect he was entitled to the British War and Victory medals.


You may well be right in your assumption, as with a serious head and other wounds, he would need to be stabilised before being sent back to Blighty for further treatment.

He was not treated at a "hospital of sorts" as that implies the standard in France was not as high as in the UK, but simply given the best treatment possible in the circumstances.


If he was the eldest son of Willie and Ellen Megson of Sheepridge, Huddersfield in 1911, he was baptised 10 July 1894

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There is a fragment on FMP which shows him as H.G. Megson 23860 on a return from No 19 Casualty Clearing Station France dated 3rd December 1917. Seems too much of a coincidence for him not to be the same man as noted by Kevin.

To clarify some of the speculation above the service record of 23800 Harry Megson of Dewsbury is quite explicit:-

Enlisted in NF under the Derby or Group Scheme as above December 1915

Mobilized 1st June 1916

Posted BEF and Embarked Folkestone 12/9/1916, landed Boulogne the same day

To 31 Infantry Base Depot Etaples 13/9/1916 and posted 8th Bn NF as often happened he did not serve in the field with the NF but on the

19/9/1916 was posted to the 2nd Dukes, joining the battalion in the field on the 21 September.

He was hospitalised on the 4/12/1916 with inflammation of the connective tissue and trench foot

On the 14/12/1916 (may be a typo here) he was admitted to 34 W Lancs CCS with trench foot and from there went up the casualty evacuation chain to 13 General Hospital and evacuated to England on the 18 December.

He returned to the fray on the 11 May 1917and again passed through the IBD at Etaples rejoining the 2nd Bn on the 27 May

Granted proficiency pay on the 1st June, he was wounded on the 23 November 1917.

The war diary gives the exact coordinates for their position in the line, a sniper (?)

He was taken into the casualty evacuation chain at 10 Field Ambulance and the same day moved up to No 19 CCS

He was reported as 'seriously ill'

He was moved to 26 General Hospital at Etaples and from there evacuated to England on the A.T. Brighton on the 8th December.

On both occasions he was evacuated to the UK he was posted to the Depot strength. As Craig pointed out at the outset this was simply an administrative posting , in other words he was taken off the active duty strength and shown on a casualty List at the Depot, I.e. The Regimental HQ. He was not physically at the Depot but was in hospital. On recovery the first time he was hospitalised he was posted to the 3rd or Reserve Bn where he was physically present in all probability on light duties until he returned to full fitness and was posted back to France. On the second occasion he was so badly wounded he was discharged from the Depot list.

I can't see which hospital he was in in England but if they were very ill they tried to put them close to home, or he may have been at a specialist head injury hospital.

Ken

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Ken,

Fantastic, reading that just about blew my socks off !!

I also need to clarify a couple of points , but in the main, everything you said appears correct.

Harry Megson was my Grandfather, not sure about the middle name G.? and I am sure his number was 23800 (when you mentioned 23860, had your finger missed the 0 ) ?

He was born in Thornhill Lees, near Dewsbury on the 2nd August 1897.

Kevin, talked about him being from Sheepridge, Huddersfield, which I am pretty certain was not the case.

He enlisted in Dewsbury on the 8th December 1915 and from then on in your account fits very nicely with the information I have put together over the last 18 months.

He was posted to the 2nd Dukes 19/9/16 after being in the 8th Btn NF.

Did not realise he had been hospitalised in Dec 1916, but was under the impression he had come back to England on the 18th/19th Dec 1916 ( did not know why, assumed he was on leave.

Yes, he went back to France in May 1917.

I have got copies of the war diaries of the 2nd Btn. The Duke of Wellingtons Regiment (West Riding) which details their involvement in the Battle of Poelcapelle during the first part of October 1917 and I assumed that he must have been one of the 200 men that were wounded during that action.

What made me think that is (according to the War Diaries) that after they were relieved very few men were killed or wounded, but the battalion did see further action on the 30/31st Oct and 1st Nov..

After that they were at Schramm barracks for a few days

8th Nov they relieved the Somerset Light Infantry and on the 12th Nov they were back in the line, facing hostile gas. On the 15th Nov, 2 men were killed and 2 wounded (Lewis Gun team) and after that nothing much happened (no mention of any casualties) but they were back in the front line 22nd/ 23rd Nov S. E of Monchy, before heading back to Arras on the 24th.......

Yes, He was back in the Depot around the 10th Dec 1917, before being discharged as medically unfit on the 8th Feb 1918 in York.

So, I assumed, he was injured at the battle of Poelcapelle, (gunshots to the head and leg) and was hospitalised in France, before he was fit enough to return to the UK.

That is as I understand it, especially as the War diaries gave details of very few wounded men after the end of October.

Ken....I would love to know a bit more ?

Kind regards.

N.

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Harry Megson was my Grandfather, not sure about the middle name G.? and I am sure his number was 23800 (when you mentioned 23860, had your finger missed the 0 ) ?

No my finger did no miss the '0' but some unknown typist at 19 CCS his service record confirms it is him, or as I said too much of a coincidence for it not to be.

He was born in Thornhill Lees, near Dewsbury on the 2nd August 1897.

On discharge gave address as 193 Lees Hall Road, Thornhill Lees, Dewsbury, the same as shown on his attestation form.

He enlisted in Dewsbury on the 8th December 1915 and from then on in your account fits very nicely with the information I have put together over the last 18 months.

He was posted to the 2nd Dukes 19/9/16 after being in the 8th Btn NF.

He attested as above and was mobilised on the 1st June 1916 and his attestation approved at Pontefract when he was posted to the 15th (Reserve) Bn Northumberland Fusiliers on the 3rd June 1916 and allocated the regimental number 29345. After completion of basic training on the 28 August 1916 he was transferred to the 3rd (Reserve) Bn to await a posting to active service overseas. On the 11th Sepember 1916 he was posted to the 8th Bn in France. This posting did not stick and at the IBD he was posted to the Dukes. This was not unusual men were sent where they were most needed.

Did not realise he had been hospitalised in Dec 1916, but was under the impression he had come back to England on the 18th/19th Dec 1916 ( did not know why, assumed he was on leave.

I have got copies of the war diaries of the 2nd Bn

I 've seen the diary and agree that

they were back in the front line 22nd/ 23rd Nov S. E of Monchy, before heading back to Arras on the 24th

And his casualty form clearly states he was wounded in the 'Field' 23.11.17. The fact an other rank was wounded was so commonplace it would hardly rate a mention, in fact it's doubtful the writer of the diary may have even known about it at the time. Some diaries have monthly casualty returns and after a major engagement, as at Poelcapelle totals may be given.

Yes, He was back in the Depot around the 10th Dec 1917,

As previously noted he was not back at the Depot but posted to the Depot strength. He was evacuated to England on the 8th and would have been in hospital in the UK. Unfortunately which hospital is not shown

before being discharged as medically unfit on the 8th Feb 1918 in York.

So, I assumed, he was injured at the battle of Poelcapelle, (gunshots to the head and leg) and was hospitalised in France, before he was fit enough to return to the UK.

He was definitely not wounded at Poelcapelle.

That is as I understand it, especially as the War diaries gave details of very few wounded men after the end of October.

The movement of other ranks receives scant attention in the war diaries he could have been bringing up rations, laying signal wires attached elsewhere. There are countless reasons why the adjutant may not have been aware. I had a relative died of wounds at Etaples, I assumed he'd died in hospital only to find his wounds were sustained in an air raid while waiting a posting.

Hope this clarifies things for you, sorry about the format. The fragment and his service record are on FMP the fragment is for some reason indexed as 'Harry G' but having had another look not on the actual document.

Ken

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If he was the eldest son of Willie and Ellen Megson of Sheepridge, Huddersfield in 1911, he was baptised 10 July 1894

You state he was born 2 August 1897, so clearly I haven't linked to the correct family.

The fantastic details Ken has worried out of the few FMP scraps shows that Harry had trench foot from early December 1916 and was evacuated to England and not fit for return to the Front until May 1917, which is quite a long time for "simple" trench foot and may have had other complications.

Kens latest reply (above) has his comments inside the text quotes from you and show that on 23 November when they were in trenches S E of Monchy, Harry was severely wounded, NOT at Poelcapelle.

Fascinating that so much detail exists for him.

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Ken & Kevin.

All that is amazing reading and thanks to you both for your time, knowledge, interest and attention to detail.

Fantastic stuff, but the ball has started rolling once more.....

I really need to get some maps of Monchy to look at the front lines, trenches and situation on or around the 23rd Nov 1917.

Yes, the war diary gives the co-ordinates but I need to understand how to read those coordinates.

What is the FMP ? and how do I access his casualty form.

Thanks for everything

Regards.

N

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For trench maps online try

http://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/

And/or

http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/home

Reading a trench map see parent site LLT

http://www.1914-1918.net/trench_maps.htm

FMP = Find my past see this thread for notifications of cheap subscriptions

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=229126&page=6#entry2356105

Kevin

He also had ICT as well as trench foot as yo probably know this was inflammation of connective tissue which is an auto-immune disorder and although common in the trenches was difficult to treat and caused fatigue and muscle weakness among other symptoms.

Btw thanks for pointing out my previous reply was in the box, I tried to be clever but couldn't change the font, doh!

Ken

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  • 1 year later...

 

Hi. 12 months later and I am back on the case

Just to say thanks to everyone who commented on this topic.

I had some more questions, but having read very carefully the notes and information supplied, I am now confident about what happened to Harry Megson

 

Many thanks

Kind regards

Nigel Megson

Edited by Ian N Megson
Not read the scripts properly
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For clarification, the interpretation I gave you last year is from the service record of Harold Megson 27345 Northumberland Fusiliers/23800 West Riding Regiment apparent age 18 years and 5 months on attestation in December 1915 and living in Dewsbury.  His mother's name is Nellie.  

His record is on FMP 

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7273293%2f129%2f1270

 

The 'fragment'  on FMP is indexed by them as  'H.G. Megson 23860 2nd Bn Duke of Wellingtons' however the entry shows '23860 Pte. Megson H. 2nd DoW' (no 'G')

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2fsupp%2f500909

 

As 23800 was admitted to 19 CCS on 23/11/1917 and was serving in the 2nd Bn D.o W. as previously noted it seems too much of a coincidence.  In any event the fragment adds little to the service record.

I just mentioned it for completeness, however if 23800 is not your man on the basis of his biographical details then we start again but not with 23860.

 

I've searched the medal rolls and 23860 was issued to a Private Fry so it is clearly a case of misindexing on the family history site compounding an original typo 100 years ago.

 

 

I've just replied to your pre-edit!!!

 

Ken

 

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Ken,

Really pleased to hear from you, I was hoping you still might be out there !

 

Yes, my man (grandfather) was Private Harry (no G) Megson  23800.

He came from Thornhill, Dewsbury, (Born 2nd August 1897) and wounded on the 23rd November 191, south east of Monchy le Preux.

 

I have just carefully read all the scripts again and it all adds up, no mention was given of any men wounded in the 2nd Battalion War diary that I am looking at, but maybe that's just how it is.

I noted that 2 men were killed and 2 wounded when a Lewis gun team was knocked out on the 15th Nov.

Can you confirm this please, I have the front line on the 21st November as being from 0.86.3.3 to 0.8.b.45.99. ?

I was just searching for a trench map on line as your reply came in.

You take care

N

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His record shows he was wounded on the 23rd November 1917.  I notice I wrote sniper(?) last year however reading the casualty form again it show GSW head and leg so that seems unlikely.  GSW was used to describe any penetrating wound. So it could have been a shell or mortar, the diary as you have seen is very brief and it appears t have been 'quiet'.

 

Yes that is how I read their location.  Have you seen the Operation Order for the movement into the line?

 

Ken

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I have copies of some of his forms from the Pension records and yes, it states GSW head and left leg, so I do think it was shrapnel of some type and I know he did have a plate fitted to his head.

No, I have not seen the Operation Order for the movement in to the line, but again I noticed it did mention it in the war diary, but I have no idea where to look for that one

 

Nigel

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He appears on the WO's Daily Wounded for 31st Dec 1917, in the weekly casualty list Jan 8th 1918 Edition. Appreciate not too much help clarifying his evacuation back to England, plus don't read too much into the 31st Dec date as the wound event often happened weeks before, as in this case.

Andy

Screenshot_20170627-171443.jpg.1bf59edbac803b56b98e0d71322457ee.jpg

 

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That's amazing

Many thanks for that,

I don't know how you guys do it !

Kind regards

Nigel Megson

PS

just out of interest how close will I be able to get for a trench map of Monchy le Preux for Nov 1917

I have looked on and got some reasonable info from both McMaster University and the National Library of Scotland websites.

Any where else I should look please ? thanks

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The operation order is an appendix to the war diary attached at the end of the month.

 

The 12th  Brigade war diary has a sketch map, marked 'TRENCHES NOT DRAWN ACCURATELY' it's dated 1-11-1917 however it does show locations mentioned in the op order, e.g. PICK (Avenue).

 

The Brigade diary refers to Sheet 51b/40000 which is at McMasters here I'm on a an iPad which is useless for looking at the maps

 

Ken

Edited by kenf48
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Thank you for the information, always appreciated

I have been looking at a map via the National Library of Scotlands archives.

It is 51b SW Edition 7D dated March 1918 and has some excellent trench detail on it

The Front line could well be at the end of Pick Avenue, going North/South and facing the German 'Spoon trench'

This also links in very closely with the map ref given in the war diary. 

 

I am now using this as my reference point for what happened on the 23rd Nov 1917.

I have moved the info onto Google Earth and will definitely be there sometime in the future

N

 

Just out of interest, I thought that my family interest in WW1  had come to an end, but I have found a picture of a relative (Wilfred Hirst) in an army uniform.

Where would I start from scratch with this man. I have a name, DoB and home town ?

595362c59f4b7_WilfredHirstontheleft.jpg.ae763714e423fde56af76f9a73291df5.jpg

 

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Do a search for Wilfred Hirst under Military Records on Ancestry or Military, Armed Forces and Conflict on FindMyPast, putting in all the information that you already have.

Then fingers crossed that something comes up!

 

Martin

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