Lt. Leslie Ring. 3rd London Regiment.

[Tony Ring]

I am back after several years still trying to solve a mystery. My Great Uncle Leslie Ring was KIA at the Battle of Epehy on the 18th September 1918. From what I have been told his section was involved in mopping up snipers etc who were hiding in the ruins around Fishers Keep. He was last seen in no mans land where I understand his body was later found. His wife in the UK received a telegram advising her of this. I do not know the date. His father in Greymouth NZ was advised on the 8th October that Leslie had been killed.

The Graves Registration report has confused me. It would appear that Leslie was initially buried as an unknown London Regiment Lieut with a date of death 26th September. At some stage he has been identified and the date of death changed to 18th Sept.

He is in a trench grave with others that initially also have their dates of death as the 26th Sept. These have now been amended.

This confuses me and am I right in presuming that their bodies were found after the 26th September and buried.

Obviously Leslie was difficult to identify and one presumes he was still wearing part of his uniform so his rank was obvious. I figure it was a later process of elimination confirming his ID prior to NOK being advised.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance

Tony

[Tony Ring]

Further to my post above does anyone know a good book on the Battle of Epehy.

I have the one by K W Mitchinson - Hindenburg Line - and have drawn a blank sourcing others.

I mentioned some time ago that there is little documentation about this battle. Not sure why.

Any comments concerning my first post would be appreciated.

Tony

[Drew-1918]

Hello Tony,

Further to your first post, I can understand why you might have been a little confused. I almost expected there to be a 'Concentration of Graves- Burial Return Form' which showed that a reburial took place, together with an identification. This was the case with my own relative around the same time and place (see signature below). However, there is no such form, and, as I think you are saying, it is almost as if they came along later and made the assumption that since it was Lieut of the London Rgt,, and in such and such an area, that it must be Lieut Ring. There were two London Rgt Lieuts. killed on that date, so perhaps this is an obvious deduction to make, but I am pretty sure I have seen many examples where such an obvious course of action was not followed and this did not happen.

I'm sorry I can't help more, but your post made me think, and I just wanted to comment. It looks like the form was stamped in Jul 1920, and then further amended in Sept 1920 and July 1921, when perhaps the alterations were made. I think he must have been buried some time around 26th September as you wonder, because there would be a reburial report otherwise, from the time of the battlefield clearance. I'm sure I will be corrected if wrong!

Regards,

Chris

[Tony Ring]

Chris.

Thank you for your response.

They say that time heals however in this case it is the enemy. I will never know what really happened.

I can confirm his wife & father (on the 8th Oct) were told he was KIA not missing presumed dead so there must have been an ID within 2 to 3 weeks of his death. Perhaps the paperwork took a while to catch up.

I have a copy of a letter his widow wrote to Scottish Command on the 27th January 1919 requesting that they return some personal effects. Not sure how the Scotts were involved. Did they fight at Epehy ?

As I previously stated the true facts will never be known. Although I live in Gods own country its very frustrating living so far away.

[Drew-1918]

Im not sure about the Scots at Epehy, but there were plenty of Scottish Regiments within the Fourth Army. It sounds like a Scottish Rgt passing through provided the burial party doesn't it?

Chris

[Tony Ring]

Chris.

A real "who done it ".

Thank you.

My son who was on his OE paid his respects to Leslie about 15 years.

I am pleased that the blood line continues.

Tony

[Michelle Young]

http://www.amazon.com/Epehy-Hindenburg-Line-Pen-Sword-ebook/dp/B00DN4UNG6/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1456991028&sr=8-1&keywords=Epehy

This is the only one I know of Tony

Michelle

[Tony Ring]

Michelle

Thank you... unfortunately I already have this book.

Its almost the forgotten battle.

Tony

[Tony Ring]

As a result of valuable assistance from you good people I am aware that Leslie Ring was seconded to the Royal Engineers in Sept 1917. This is 12 months before he was back in the 3rd Londons when he was KIA.

If I want to find out what he was up to in the engineers can some kind soul please point me in the right direction to make my enquiries as I have no information about this.

Thank you from a humble Kiwi.

Tony

[Mark James]

Hi Tony,

 

I'm a bit late to the party I'm afraid.  My grandfather, Alfred George James, was serving in the 3rd London Regiment when he was very badly injured during the Battle of Epehy on the 18th of September 1918.  I'm travelling to France next week so that I can be at the place he was injured for the 100th anniversary.  I would like to be at the start position for the 3rd London Regiment at 0520 (zero hour) on the 18th of September, but as of yet I've not been able to find out where that is exactly.  Additionally I would like to pay my respects to any of his comrades that were killed in the Battle and I will find your Great Uncle's grave to do this.  Your Great Uncle is listed on page 409 (pdf not book) of the book at the website below.

 

https://ia902205.us.archive.org/34/items/royalfusiliersin00onei/royalfusiliersin00onei_bw.pdf

 

All the best

 

Mark

[Tony Ring]

Mark

 

Welcome to the party....

 

Thanks for that.   Much appreciated...     Presumably Alfred & Leslie would have known each other........

 

I have a relation living in Hull who is a descendent of Leslie and she is making a pilgrimage to Epehy on the 18th Sept to pay her respects.   She will place a wreath etc.....

 

Leslie is buried in a trench grave with touching head stones - I.G.15.

 

I am desperately trying to find a plan of the attack that I will post if located but from memory the 3rd Londons took off from the area where the cemetery is now located.

 

Cheers.

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

[Mark James]

Hi Tony,

 

Good to see that you're still using this forum, your previous exchanges with others have been really helpful in helping me find out snippets of information.

 

I believe that, looking at the war diary entry for the 3rd London Regiment for the 18th of September and from what I can just about make out from a map that Tom (towisuk) copied to you previously, the Battalion start point at Zero hour was a bit to the west of Epehy Wood Farm.  I've been in contact with Tom and he's trying to help out, despite the fact he's away at the moment and limited in his IT.

 

Tell you relative to look out for someone wearing his grandfather's medals on the 18th, as I will definitely paying my respects at your Great Uncle's grave at some point in the day.

 

Thanks for your help and for getting back to me.

 

Mark

[Drew-1918]

I have quite a lot of London Regiment War Diaries form this period because of my own research. Sometimes a battalion in the same brigade will have a map which depicts the positions of other units. Can you tell me which other London battalions attacked on that day? I can then have a little look for you, if you want. I also have a few of the histories so we might be able to turn something up, fingers crossed. 

 

Chris 

[Drew-1918]

The following map is contained in the 9th London Regiment War Diary. I have often wondered about it as I do not know to what it refers. As far as I can see, neither the 9th Londons (nor anyone else in the 175th Bde), ever held or started off from such positions. The 9th Londons and the 175th Bde took over from the 173rd Bde beyond the positions marked on the attached map in the squares marked "X". They moved up from an area around E2 and E9 on map 62c NE. In other words, I do not think this is a map that really belongs with files of a battalion of the 175th Bde; it looks more like it should belong with the 173 Bde files. I wonder if one of the battalions marked could be the 3rd battalion? The 'red' left battalion HQ is slightly further to the south on this map than that stated in the 3rd Bn War Diary, but perhaps if you compared this map to the 3rd battalion account it might help.

 

If it is any good, you could then use the National Library of Scotland trench maps to pinpoint it on a modern map. 

 

62c NE Epehy 21st Feb, 1918

57c SE Epehy   22nd Sept, 1918

 

I hope this helps a little. 

 

Chris

 

Edited 11 September , 2018 by Drew-1918
Typos

[Mark James]

Chris,

 

Many thanks for that.  The disposition of the (red) Left Battalion looks pretty close to what I read into the 3rd London Regiment War Diary for the 18th September 1918; it would tie in with an assembly area in W28, forming up as a left and right Company, with the two further supporting Companies.  I'll have a look at the other maps, but I've got to say this does give a good impression of the line of attack.

 

Thanks again

 

Mark

[Mark James]

PS 2/2 London were also in the attack.

[Drew-1918]

Hello again Mark,

 

You are very welcome, I am glad it was of interest. 

 

Just looking at the 2/2nd Londons history book and it says the 3rd Londons were on the right. I think I made a mistake in saying they were the left battalion. I will post more details later, but here are the simplified maps given in the book.

 

The map I posted yesterday continues to look likely as the 62nd Bde. are written on it and they also seem to have been involved in the attack of 18th September. 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Apologies, there is a possibility that the first map I posted was from the 10th of September when the 2/2nd, 3rd and 2/4th Londons first attacked Epehy. 

 

Edited 12 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[Drew-1918]

 

On 11/09/2018 at 04:28, Mark James said:

Hi Tony,

 

I'm a bit late to the party I'm afraid.  My grandfather, Alfred George James, was serving in the 3rd London Regiment when he was very badly injured during the Battle of Epehy on the 18th of September 1918.  I'm travelling to France next week so that I can be at the place he was injured for the 100th anniversary.  I would like to be at the start position for the 3rd London Regiment at 0520 (zero hour) on the 18th of September, but as of yet I've not been able to find out where that is exactly.  Additionally I would like to pay my respects to any of his comrades that were killed in the Battle and I will find your Great Uncle's grave to do this.  Your Great Uncle is listed on page 409 (pdf not book) of the book at the website below.

 

https://ia902205.us.archive.org/34/items/royalfusiliersin00onei/royalfusiliersin00onei_bw.pdf

 

All the best

 

Mark

Hello Mark,

I think you may already have worked out this information, but I will post anyway, just in case. The 2/2nd War Diary (below) says that their own "C" Company and also one company of the 3rd London Rgt were at a location from W.29.d.3.8. to W.29.d.7.0. I have marked this area on the two maps below. If you get to that road between the two crosses, you should be able to be in the middle of the start line for the attack. I was in Epehy in August, it was a very moving experience. Best wishes on your trip.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

[Drew-1918]

There is a slight disparity in that the 2/2nd London WD has them finishing their start line-up on a level with Wood Farm, whereas the 2nd Londons History book map has the 3rd Londons a touch more to the south of the farm. I will have to look again at the 3rd London WD later unless you beat me to it. 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Mark James]

Hi Chris,

 

I'd not thought to look at the 2/2 London WD before, thanks.  I'm thinking that my grandfather was quite likely in the Company from 3 London that was with C Company as he was definitely wounded in Peiziere rather than Epehy itself.  Thanks for the extra information and map, it's much appreciated.

 

All the best

 

Mark

[Drew-1918]

Glad it was of help. 

 

The thing is, the 3rd Bn WD seems to say that battalion were in W28, but the 2/2nd WD states that they were lined up in W29. Is there a mistake somewhere or was it rather that the main body of the battalion were in W28 at the start and the attacking companies were further foward? 

You have analysed this more than me though, so perhaps I am missing some point. If so, apologies. 

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

Edit: Apologies, I have just realised that there is a bit of repetition in this post from what I wrote in post no. 19.

Edited 13 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[Tony Ring]

On 13/09/2018 at 02:00, Drew-1918 said:

 

Hello Mark,

I think you may already have worked out this information, but I will post anyway, just in case. The 2/2nd War Diary (below) says that their own "C" Company and also one company of the 3rd London Rgt were at a location from W.29.d.3.8. to W.29.d.7.0. I have marked this area on the two maps below. If you get to that road between the two crosses, you should be able to be in the middle of the start line for the attack. I was in Epehy in August, it was a very moving experience. Best wishes on your trip.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

Fantastic......

[Tony Ring]

 

Appreciate the information that all of you have provided...   

 

Mark.

 

You might run into my cousin Ann at the Woodfarm cemetery on Tuesday.

 

good luck.

 

Tony

[Mark James]

Tony,

 

Many thanks

 

Mark

[Mark James]

Hi Tony,

 

I visited your Great Uncle's grave today whilst I was getting myself familiarized with the area; I will be there again tomorrow to commemorate the centenary of the Battle.

 

Best wishes

 

Mark