msdt Posted 22 February , 2016 Share Posted 22 February , 2016 This holster has no military or makers marks at all - although it is named to its original owner! And luckily an owner with 3 initials and a British soldier with a German father! But what is it for? It has held a small revolver with a 2 1/2 inch or 3 inch barrel. It could be pre WW1, as CFL Ruoff was in Africa in 1898: Charles Frederick Louis Ruoff (1870-1952), Captain in 1st Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment in 1918. Awarded the West Africa medal with clasp "Sierra Leone 1898-9". Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 22 February , 2016 Share Posted 22 February , 2016 Webley 'Bulldog' possibly? 2-1/2" barrel, 6" overall. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damianb Posted 23 February , 2016 Share Posted 23 February , 2016 Webley .360 #5? Tranter type small frame revolver? These are all possible fit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 23 February , 2016 Share Posted 23 February , 2016 Given those dates, and the military connection, then the most likely candidate has got to be a MkIV/V Webley. 4" barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 23 February , 2016 Share Posted 23 February , 2016 Any chance of seeing a photo of the holster from the front edge? I am inclined to agree with you that its for a small (frame) revolver not just a short barrel. The larger .455's have essentially the same cylinder dimensions and that should be obvious when viewing the holster, sometimes you can get quite a good 'phantom' image of a large revolver, I can see no cylinder guide just the impression of the cylinder, It's hard to judge just by a photo, but without without seeing it in person I would concur with the 'Bulldog', small frame Webley or similar revolver thoughts. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 23 February , 2016 Share Posted 23 February , 2016 You can see the stretched leather where the cylinder sat. So called "Bulldogs" had a loading gate, rather than the top break with stirrup on the later Webleys. They also needed an ejector plunger to the lower right aspect of the barrel, and there are no stretches on the leather to match such components. Whaddya think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 23 February , 2016 Share Posted 23 February , 2016 You could be absolutely correct, although I did refer to Bulldog, I really was thinking more of the frame size, what also is a possibility is that the holster may have been a universal small frame holster not made with any particular handgun in mind,* compared to military holsters that are made to a standard pattern. * that is still done today. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 February , 2016 Share Posted 23 February , 2016 3 inch barrel. It could be pre WW1, as CFL Ruoff was in Africa in 1898: Tony, Given your date and the probable 3 inch barrel length, were this pistol case/holster for a Webley, then a likely Webley would have been the Webley Mark II or Mark III ' Pocket Pistol ' which came in a 3 inch barrel and in .38 and .320 calibres, these were produced 1890/1900 and would have been popular private purchase revolvers for British Officers due to their compact size. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 February , 2016 Share Posted 23 February , 2016 The Webley Marks II & III ' Pocket Pistols ' with 3 inch barrels, produced 1890/1900. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 23 February , 2016 Share Posted 23 February , 2016 Tony, Given your date and the probable 3 inch barrel length, were this pistol case/holster for a Webley, then a likely Webley would have been the Webley Mark II or Mark III ' Pocket Pistol ' which came in a 3 inch barrel and in .38 and .320 calibres, these were produced 1890/1900 and would have been popular private purchase revolvers for British Officers due to their compact size. Regards, LF This looks right to me - it looks as if it would have fitted the Webley Mk.III 3" .38 I once had. Ah, I see Lanc's just posted a pic - mine was like the lower one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 23 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2016 Thanks everyone for the input. The Webley Mark II or III ' Pocket Pistol ' with a 3 inch barrel certainly looks a good possibility and seems to match the marks in the holster well. Very nice to have the name on it. Cheers, Tony Oh, and thanks for the pics LF, a great help. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 Thanks everyone for the input. The Webley Mark II or III ' Pocket Pistol ' with a 3 inch barrel certainly looks a good possibility and seems to match the marks in the holster well. Very nice to have the name on it. Oh, and thanks for the pics LF, a great help. Tony, A pistol/revolver's compact size had appeal to some British officers as a private purchase side-arm, here is an example from my firearms collection of a British Officer's 1916 Harrington & Richardson's .32 calibre self-loading semi-automatic pistol, Type 1, for which production started on 20th April, 1916. With it's 3.5 inch barrel, it also came with a small sized pistol case, which on it's own, is a rare item. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 Very nice combination LF, I have always thought that your pistol & rig must have belonged to a senior officer, as wasn't it mandatory for an officer to carry a sidearm that used .455 ammunition ? only a senior officer could get away with wearing anything else. A junior officer would be more likely to carry such a weapon as a concealed backup. Do you know to whom it belonged? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 Very nice combination LF, I have always thought that your pistol & rig must have belonged to a senior officer, as wasn't it mandatory for an officer to carry a sidearm that used .455 ammunition ? only a senior officer could get away with wearing anything else. khaki Sassoon rather famously carried a .32 Browning. It was sold a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 Did Sassoon carry it as a backup pistol ? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 I have always believed so. Here's an old thread . . . http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3099 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 I have always thought that your pistol & rig must have belonged to a senior officer, as wasn't it mandatory for an officer to carry a sidearm that used .455 ammunition ? only a senior officer could get away with wearing anything else. A junior officer would be more likely to carry such a weapon as a concealed backup. Do you know to whom it belonged? Unfortunately, I do not know who owned this pistol, which was clearly a private purchase item. To standardize ammunition, the ' Service Revolvers ' were in .455 calibre, however Officers were free to purchase an use their own side-arms, and as Stoppage Drill has said, Siegfried Sassoon armed himself with a Browning Semi-Automatic Pistol, and I also think Winston Churchill also carried a Semi-Automatic Pistol at the Front. Here is an interesting reference to Sassoon's pistol from the Royal Welch Fusiliers' Museum which has his pistol on display :- " The service issue revolvers of the First World War were large and clumsy, intended for use in the confines of trench or bunker - or as a last resort. Not surprisingly, wealthy officers sometimes purchased smaller, handier, examples for themselves, with semi-automatic pistols being especially popular. One such officer was renowned poet and author Siegfried Sassoon. As he confides in Memoirs of an Infantry Officer (1930): ..I was weary of my Colt revolver, with which I knew I couldn't hit anything, although I had blazed it off a few times in the dark when I was pretending to be important in No-Man's Land. The only object I could be sure of hitting was myself.But it wasn't simply the inaccuracy of the revolver as an offensive weapon which troubled Sassoon. Like many others, he was appalled by the prospect of a slow death "lying out in a shell-hole with something more serious than a Blighty wound". In such circumstances, he reasoned, it would be necessary to end it all quickly, while "to blow one's brains out with that clumsy Colt was unthinkable". With this grim prospect in mind, Sassoon purchased a 7.62mm Browning semi-automatic from the London branch of the Army and Navy Stores in March 1916, on his way back from leave to France. Rumours of a massive summer offensive also prompted Sassoon's purchase, and as he left the idyllic Kent of his childhood he wondered whether he would ever return again. Over the next two and half years Sassoon served variously with the 1st and 2nd Battalions, Royal Welch Fusiliers, in France and Flanders and with the 25th Battalion in Palestine and France. When out on patrol in No Man's Land, Sassoon wrote that he would clutch the Browning pistol in his breeches pocket for reassurance, no doubt helping to give an outward appearance of calm. Although twice wounded (once in the head) Sassoon never needed to use the pistol for the desperate purpose he had intended. After the war he gave it to a fellow officer, who later emigrated to Australia. After many years, the pistol returned to Wales and can be seen today on display in the Regimental Museum, clearly engraved 'S. Sassoon 1 RWF'. " Attached is a photograph of Siegfried Sassoon's Browing Semi-Automatic Pistol. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 7.65 mm not 7.62 ! aka .32 ACP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 Thanks LF & Mr Drill, Interesting reading, khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 Maybe I am wrong about it having been sold recently - on reflection I think it came to broader public notice as a result of having been shown on BBC TV's "Antiques Roadshow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 As for WSC carrying a s/auto pistol in WW1, I dunno, but I find it likely. He had carried a C96 in the Boer War, and he packed a 1911 in WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 7.65 mm not 7.62 ! aka .32 ACP SD, The U.S. .32 can be equated to either the European 7.65 mm or 7.62 mm, and Sassoon's Browning Pistol was actually in 7.62 mm calibre. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 25 February , 2016 Share Posted 25 February , 2016 Just for the sake of comparison, a 1916 Webley and a FN Browning. (and I just like pistols) khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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